Allegiant Air
06-26-2016, 09:44 AM
#3081
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 284
I do too. But I'm kinda getting the sense they might feel this is the best they could probably get so lets put it out for a vote. While I fully support and applaud all they've done and are doing, I think the rules are weak and the days off provision is almost NO vote worthy by itself. I want this done and I want a deal we can be proud of...I don't think this deal is it as it stands though.
06-26-2016, 10:13 AM
#3083
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Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 36
06-26-2016, 10:50 AM
#3085
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,432
Most of spirits voting pilots are on the junior end. That top rate was not the issue it was how weak the junior/mid rates were
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06-26-2016, 10:57 AM
#3086
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 34
Two important points to remember:
1. This is a new contract. The NMB looks at this negotiation differently than if we already had a contract and were amending it. They may not appreciate us snubbing the company's newly found good-will, even if they dragged us along for the entire time up to this point.
2. We can only negotiate for what's out there now, not what we think other airlines will negotiate for in the future. So this will put our rates above Spirit, JetBlue, Frontier, and Sun Country, and right at Alaska's rates. Compared to other ULCCs, our TA's rates and retirement are industry leading. This is where contract duration becomes important.
1. This is a new contract. The NMB looks at this negotiation differently than if we already had a contract and were amending it. They may not appreciate us snubbing the company's newly found good-will, even if they dragged us along for the entire time up to this point.
2. We can only negotiate for what's out there now, not what we think other airlines will negotiate for in the future. So this will put our rates above Spirit, JetBlue, Frontier, and Sun Country, and right at Alaska's rates. Compared to other ULCCs, our TA's rates and retirement are industry leading. This is where contract duration becomes important.
06-26-2016, 11:04 AM
#3087
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320
Posts: 92
The negotiating committee and the EXCO signed off on this TA. They didn't have to. They could submit the TA to the pilots with a "we don't recommend it" statement, as has been done before at other carriers. in other words, stating things like "Look guys this is the very best the Union could negotiate with management over. You vote on whether to accept it or not." If there is a no vote, then the union can take that back to the negotiating table as collateral for stronger negotiations.
They didn't do that. They immediately sent out their approval of it. So the EXCO and the NC are directly responsible for the outcome of the vote. From what I'm seeing from every pilot I have talked to the story is the same - cautious excitement but as Wednesday approaches the truth is whittling its way free and now the pilots are realizing that the contract will be appropriate for pay and regional or worse level work rules everywhere else, and the resolve seems to be there that they have absolutely no problem voting it down.
It's not even out yet, and if I were a betting man I'd bet that the vote at best will be a close thumbs up, but could very well be a land slide thumbs down.
And if it's voted down, if Maury thought things were bad before... just wait until he gets a p1ssed off pilot group return the TA. The attrition will continue to be unsustainable and will throttle the company's growth plans in the process. And WHEN the other carriers start producing their contracts it just sets the bar higher for Maury to have to "match" to "average". In other words the longer Maury stalls on this, the more expensive overall it will be for him just in salaries alone, and the work rules will still be a contentious issue he will have to address. The stock holders should care about that.
The single days off issue has several ways to be worked out. It is probably the single most important factor that will be someone's reason to vote no. I have personally seen the attitude of some of the union leadership and they have that same "this is Allegiant and is our business model" in their heads. It can still be their business model. It just requires some work around and probably a slight increase in staffing to allow pilots out of the single day off problem. It is NOT an impossible problem, the company just doesn't want to. Well, Maury said he would never allow dues check-off. EVER. But he did.
Yes. They can fix the single day off issue. And if the union tip-toed around that issue by letting money fly at them enough to not look that way, it may have just cost them the TA. That will be a bad, sad, expensive move that will affect both parties.
They didn't do that. They immediately sent out their approval of it. So the EXCO and the NC are directly responsible for the outcome of the vote. From what I'm seeing from every pilot I have talked to the story is the same - cautious excitement but as Wednesday approaches the truth is whittling its way free and now the pilots are realizing that the contract will be appropriate for pay and regional or worse level work rules everywhere else, and the resolve seems to be there that they have absolutely no problem voting it down.
It's not even out yet, and if I were a betting man I'd bet that the vote at best will be a close thumbs up, but could very well be a land slide thumbs down.
And if it's voted down, if Maury thought things were bad before... just wait until he gets a p1ssed off pilot group return the TA. The attrition will continue to be unsustainable and will throttle the company's growth plans in the process. And WHEN the other carriers start producing their contracts it just sets the bar higher for Maury to have to "match" to "average". In other words the longer Maury stalls on this, the more expensive overall it will be for him just in salaries alone, and the work rules will still be a contentious issue he will have to address. The stock holders should care about that.
The single days off issue has several ways to be worked out. It is probably the single most important factor that will be someone's reason to vote no. I have personally seen the attitude of some of the union leadership and they have that same "this is Allegiant and is our business model" in their heads. It can still be their business model. It just requires some work around and probably a slight increase in staffing to allow pilots out of the single day off problem. It is NOT an impossible problem, the company just doesn't want to. Well, Maury said he would never allow dues check-off. EVER. But he did.
Yes. They can fix the single day off issue. And if the union tip-toed around that issue by letting money fly at them enough to not look that way, it may have just cost them the TA. That will be a bad, sad, expensive move that will affect both parties.
06-26-2016, 11:24 AM
#3088
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
The negotiating committee and the EXCO signed off on this TA. They didn't have to. They could submit the TA to the pilots with a "we don't recommend it" statement, as has been done before at other carriers. in other words, stating things like "Look guys this is the very best the Union could negotiate with management over. You vote on whether to accept it or not." If there is a no vote, then the union can take that back to the negotiating table as collateral for stronger negotiations.
They didn't do that. They immediately sent out their approval of it. So the EXCO and the NC are directly responsible for the outcome of the vote. From what I'm seeing from every pilot I have talked to the story is the same - cautious excitement but as Wednesday approaches the truth is whittling its way free and now the pilots are realizing that the contract will be appropriate for pay and regional or worse level work rules everywhere else, and the resolve seems to be there that they have absolutely no problem voting it down.
It's not even out yet, and if I were a betting man I'd bet that the vote at best will be a close thumbs up, but could very well be a land slide thumbs down.
And if it's voted down, if Maury thought things were bad before... just wait until he gets a p1ssed off pilot group return the TA. The attrition will continue to be unsustainable and will throttle the company's growth plans in the process. And WHEN the other carriers start producing their contracts it just sets the bar higher for Maury to have to "match" to "average". In other words the longer Maury stalls on this, the more expensive overall it will be for him just in salaries alone, and the work rules will still be a contentious issue he will have to address. The stock holders should care about that.
The single days off issue has several ways to be worked out. It is probably the single most important factor that will be someone's reason to vote no. I have personally seen the attitude of some of the union leadership and they have that same "this is Allegiant and is our business model" in their heads. It can still be their business model. It just requires some work around and probably a slight increase in staffing to allow pilots out of the single day off problem. It is NOT an impossible problem, the company just doesn't want to. Well, Maury said he would never allow dues check-off. EVER. But he did.
Yes. They can fix the single day off issue. And if the union tip-toed around that issue by letting money fly at them enough to not look that way, it may have just cost them the TA. That will be a bad, sad, expensive move that will affect both parties.
They didn't do that. They immediately sent out their approval of it. So the EXCO and the NC are directly responsible for the outcome of the vote. From what I'm seeing from every pilot I have talked to the story is the same - cautious excitement but as Wednesday approaches the truth is whittling its way free and now the pilots are realizing that the contract will be appropriate for pay and regional or worse level work rules everywhere else, and the resolve seems to be there that they have absolutely no problem voting it down.
It's not even out yet, and if I were a betting man I'd bet that the vote at best will be a close thumbs up, but could very well be a land slide thumbs down.
And if it's voted down, if Maury thought things were bad before... just wait until he gets a p1ssed off pilot group return the TA. The attrition will continue to be unsustainable and will throttle the company's growth plans in the process. And WHEN the other carriers start producing their contracts it just sets the bar higher for Maury to have to "match" to "average". In other words the longer Maury stalls on this, the more expensive overall it will be for him just in salaries alone, and the work rules will still be a contentious issue he will have to address. The stock holders should care about that.
The single days off issue has several ways to be worked out. It is probably the single most important factor that will be someone's reason to vote no. I have personally seen the attitude of some of the union leadership and they have that same "this is Allegiant and is our business model" in their heads. It can still be their business model. It just requires some work around and probably a slight increase in staffing to allow pilots out of the single day off problem. It is NOT an impossible problem, the company just doesn't want to. Well, Maury said he would never allow dues check-off. EVER. But he did.
Yes. They can fix the single day off issue. And if the union tip-toed around that issue by letting money fly at them enough to not look that way, it may have just cost them the TA. That will be a bad, sad, expensive move that will affect both parties.
One conclusion is clear. This is an election year. The NMB won't be handing out any proffers of releases to a 30 day cooling off period. They will park properties for more than a few months and go somewhere else. If the D's win the WH and Hill, maybe until April. If the R's...a lot longer.
First contracts never have everything right. That's life. If they did, no one would ever have to re-negotiate every few years.
06-26-2016, 11:31 AM
#3089
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Off to the left!
Posts: 465
While I agree that single days off suck, what are you willing to give up for that to go away? They won't cave on that without getting something for it. Also, until there's a full seven day a week schedule in every base, it probably won't ever go away.
I would wait til the TA is released. Early information tends to be wrong a lot of the time.
And if you don't like the TA, volunteer for the negotiating committee if you think you can do better. From what I've been told, I think you'll find it an educational experience.
I would wait til the TA is released. Early information tends to be wrong a lot of the time.
And if you don't like the TA, volunteer for the negotiating committee if you think you can do better. From what I've been told, I think you'll find it an educational experience.
06-26-2016, 12:05 PM
#3090
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320
Posts: 92
One does not simply volunteer for the negotiating committee at any airline. There is some definite good old boy requirements there, not to mention in my experience there are many a person who would want to be on that committee, but that would certainly not be one anyone else would want to have on that committee.
As for what people would be willing to give up? It's already been mentioned a few times in this thread what is more important to people, and pay wasn't top choice, schedule and QOL was. Work rules will be the deciding factor in this vote, it won't be pay, and if it's voted down, the pilots will have spoken on what they want to see.
Also, I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to vote, but it's obvious that if the company thought throwing some cash at the pilots would make them ignore their substandard work rules they will probably have quite the shock - just like England did.
As for what people would be willing to give up? It's already been mentioned a few times in this thread what is more important to people, and pay wasn't top choice, schedule and QOL was. Work rules will be the deciding factor in this vote, it won't be pay, and if it's voted down, the pilots will have spoken on what they want to see.
Also, I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to vote, but it's obvious that if the company thought throwing some cash at the pilots would make them ignore their substandard work rules they will probably have quite the shock - just like England did.
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