cactusmike

First you have to find ETOPS 757s. They are not available very often and they command a premium on the market. A lot different than getting a bunch of used maddogs and flying between trailer parks.

Second, the yield in the Hawaiian market is not that great. It is primarily a leisure market and subject to pricing pressure. Yes, it doesn't take a lot to fill 190 seats (200 or so in an all coach configuration) but there is enough competition out there to depress prices. We pulled out of the OGG LAS market because we could make more money going out of PHX, and Hawaiian and ATA had beat the fares down pretty low. Omni takes the place of ATA and Hawaiian is still there, plus it is a local carrier in the islands, and Hawaiians like that.

Just because you fill the plane doesn't mean you make money. We used o fly full 747s between PHX and HNL and LAS and HNL (and between PHX and LAS, but that's a separate issue) and we lost money on every flight. The yield was 3 cents per seatmile and the cost was 4 cents per seatmile.

Chperplt

Mike,

Not to say that AAY could make money in Hawaii, but just because you guys couldn't make money on a plane full of pax doesn't mean Allegiant can't.

Maybe you guys should look at flying between trailer parks... We seem to be making quite a bit of money doing it.

asj410

Well....Omni was actually operating LAS-HNL while Hawaiian and ATA (and Aloha, if you want to count their one-stop service via OAK) were on the route as well. Omni has been running a flight almost daily for several years now just for those who book vacation packages through travel agencies such as Vacations Hawaii. In fact, they used to operate DC-10-30s with something like 380 seats in the market until recently. Nowadays it's a 200-something-seat 757-200. The Omni name is not very well-known in Hawaii because they are only used as the air transportation for all of those vacation packages. The airline is not actively sought out by customers in the islands. The air carrier that locals look to themselves for LAS service is, of course, Hawaiian.

pipercub

Everything we do at allegiant is what everyone else considers low yield liesure markets. If Hawaii happended it would be to bring people to hawaii and I would think from cities or airports without direct flights now.

cactusmike

ASJ - Yeah, I knew Omni has been in the Hawaii market for a long time. I think they have a better deal now that ATA has gone. The tour packagers such as Apple won't get the same deal from AA or UAL or any of the others. I heard a couple of AA and Delta guys out on the tracks the other day talking about schedule reductions for this fall. We have also dropped a couple of flights as well. I'm sitting reserve next month because of the schedule cuts.

America West (we started HI before the merger) has made money from day 1 with the 757 in the Hawaii market. My point was that even with full 747s we lost money because you have to get the yield over your costs. We could not do that with the 747s. Probably why Omni dumped the DC 10s, as well as Hawaiian going to 767s. Allegient is a well run company it appears, with a tightly defined market. My in-laws live in BLI, they have flown Allegient to IWA. Willy is a great alternative to PHX and I think they will do OK in that market. But once you start to stray out of your niche, particularly with an orphan fleet, you run the risk of losing large sums of money. The 757 is not the money pit the 747 is but like I said, there is a premium on leasing those jets right now, thanks to FedEx and foreign carriers that need the range and seats the '57 can give them for long, thin routes.

The trailer park thing: years ago I was talking to the gate agents in LAX when the ticket counter called. I could hear them say "5 TPTs on the way down". The F/O and I looked at the agents and they said, "Oh yeah, that's our code for trailer park trash." Sure enough, in a couple of minutes a scruffy looking family comes chugging up to the gate with their trash bag carry ons. It was right out of a movie, missing teeth and everything. And they were clueless. But their money pays the bills, right? We carry them all.

Chperplt

That's funny....

I've never seen so many TPTs in my life before coming to work for Allegiant. I almost died laughing one day in MSO when a family of 6 walked on the flight, each with their very own hefty bag for a carry on. One of the FAs struck up a conversation with them, and it turned out they were staying at the Bellagio.

Mullets with trash bags.... Yup.. I've made it to the big time!

flyfresno

Allegiant only moderately cares about the yields on a given route...their bread and butter is in the vacation packages they sell, not in the flights themselves. Yes, the planes must be fairly full...but that in no way determines whether they will service...or even remain in...a given market. Allegiant has been known to leave markets where they had 90%+ average load factors. Why? Because they weren't selling enough hotel rooms, rental cars, or event and theme park tickets with those flights. It's those extras that they sell along with the ticket, along with the items they sell on board, that makes Allegiant its profits. That's the secret to their success. Their business model has allowed them to succesfully fly from small airports to leisure destinations like MCO and LAS. HNL would not be much different. If they think they can sell hotel rooms, rental cars, and all the other extras that they already sell with their flights to MCO, LAS, etc, then I wouldn't be surprised if they went after HNL. And LAS-HNL could just be the beginning. You might even see them enter smaller markets that other airlines have stayed away from or served at one time but have since left. Who would have guessed there would be non-stop flights from GFK-LAS? I suspect they want to make HNL another focus city...and maybe even OGG down the road. Who knows, one day you might even see TUS-HNL, FAT-HNL, PSP-HNL, and RNO-HNL, along with SMF-OGG, LAS-OGG flights. It's just my two sense, but I think that with their current business model, Allegiant could make a KILLING flying to Hawaii.

tcaphou

Any new updates on the ETOPs certification?

PropPiedmont

Photos: Boeing 757-204 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Fishfreighter

More proof the Hawaii is at least two years away for Allegiant. They can't even fly the 757s themselves yet, much less qualify for ETOPS.