Sky writing over Super Bowl
03-02-2024, 11:59 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
Even if the union said no, there was nothing preventing the company from setting aside bonus money and using it as a retention and/or recruiting tool. The only difference the union did by agreeing was getting it in writing as a signed LOA and preventing the company from retracting it later after they benefited from it. It would have been a mistake not to agree to it unless you didn't want it in writing because you fully trust the company's word that they will pay you later in good faith. There is a lot of upcoming incentive for the company to get a deal done and it's not about new hire classes being full or not. It's the same reason we got the last TA, if you don't know what I'm refering to search my previous post.
03-03-2024, 05:53 AM
#62
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 73
I'd hope nobody really expected a TA that quickly? AA, DAL, UAL, B6, AS, WN etc all took 3-4 years. Nobody was under 3 years except for the 2 contract extensions, UPS and NK. This August will mark 3 years from expiration, I would have been shocked if we beat the whole industry and got something quicker. You're correct about the current contract, it's terrible but the new TA, whenever that happens, will make this one of the most desirable airlines if you value qol and day trips.
03-03-2024, 09:33 AM
#63
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: B757
Posts: 87
Would you mind expanding on why the current contract is terrible, in terms of specific policies/examples? I completely understand that the pay rates (especially 1st year) are not great. My priority is QOL. And I’ve heard that sometimes they move your days off and things like that, but is there anything else I should know about? I should be starting soon, and I want to make sure that I have all the information and prepare accordingly.
No min day - there are trips that only pay 2 or 3 hours. No trip rig while the rest of the industry has 1:3.5.
Unlimited monthly TDY's - Some extreme examples in the past were involuntary TDY'd out of your base for 8 or 9 months in a year. Lately involuntary TDY's have been rare though, less than 5 per month system wide.
No duty day limit - after you time out with 117 limits you can still be deadheaded indefinetly.
No long call reserve and short call report time is 90 mins. Unlimited reserve period shifts. No limit to movable days off on reserve outside of 4 gold days.
Days off can be reduced to 10 for 3 months of the year which could be 21 days of reserve in a 31 day month.
Lowest reserve min monthly guarantee in the industry at 72.
No leg by leg provision for overblock pay, only per total duty period.
No reasignment pay outside of greater of the 2.
Deadhead pay is 50%
Vacation pay 20hrs/week and sick time accural 4hrs/month, are the lowest in the industry.
No holiday pay, no international or red eye/night overides.
No snap up clause or pay increases after contract expiration.
No direct contribution retirement, only 401k matching up to 10% vs 15%-18% DC for the rest of the industry.
All of this will be fixed in the next contract which I think will be here later this year, which isn't a popular view but nobody knows for sure including myself. If you get some seniority here the QOL can't be beat. Even if you're junior, reserve can be great in some mid to smaller bases if you don't mind being on the leash. I will occationally bid reserve in the slow months and rarely get called. My lines are as good as it gets in the industry and I wouldn't even want to trade with my buddies on the legacy widebody. I'll typically bid 8+ hour day trips or some months 7.5+ with 20-23 days off and 70-80 hrs credit but I am senior in base. It has been nothing short of incredible living a normal lifestyle and not staying in hotels but right now the pay gap is getting a little rediculous vs other airlines especially since you can upgrade quickly at legacy.
The most important thing to know as a new hire is that it can be very difficult to commute if you don't get your base right away since you will be junior and your days off might only be Tues Wed and Sat. The only other thing I can think of that could be a surprise to new hires is senority progression in base if often much slower with all day trips versus the rest of the industry since the bases can't be grown indefinitely unless you were to add multi-day trips.
03-03-2024, 10:08 AM
#64
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 73
Disregard of seniority with must work days, days off you bid for could go junior to you. If you protest you will be told you bid wrong.
No min day - there are trips that only pay 2 or 3 hours. No trip rig while the rest of the industry has 1:3.5.
Unlimited monthly TDY's - Some extreme examples in the past were involuntary TDY'd out of your base for 8 or 9 months in a year. Lately involuntary TDY's have been rare though, less than 5 per month system wide.
No duty day limit - after you time out with 117 limits you can still be deadheaded indefinetly.
No long call reserve and short call report time is 90 mins. Unlimited reserve period shifts. No limit to movable days off on reserve outside of 4 gold days.
Days off can be reduced to 10 for 3 months of the year which could be 21 days of reserve in a 31 day month.
Lowest reserve min monthly guarantee in the industry at 72.
No leg by leg provision for overblock pay, only per total duty period.
No reasignment pay outside of greater of the 2.
Deadhead pay is 50%
Vacation pay 20hrs/week and sick time accural 4hrs/month, are the lowest in the industry.
No holiday pay, no international or red eye/night overides.
No snap up clause or pay increases after contract expiration.
No direct contribution retirement, only 401k matching up to 10% vs 15%-18% DC for the rest of the industry.
All of this will be fixed in the next contract which I think will be here later this year, which isn't a popular view but nobody knows for sure including myself. If you get some seniority here the QOL can't be beat. Even if you're junior, reserve can be great in some mid to smaller bases if you don't mind being on the leash. I will occationally bid reserve in the slow months and rarely get called. My lines are as good as it gets in the industry and I wouldn't even want to trade with my buddies on the legacy widebody. I'll typically bid 8+ hour day trips or some months 7.5+ with 20-23 days off and 70-80 hrs credit but I am senior in base. It has been nothing short of incredible living a normal lifestyle and not staying in hotels but right now the pay gap is getting a little rediculous vs other airlines especially since you can upgrade quickly at legacy.
The most important thing to know as a new hire is that it can be very difficult to commute if you don't get your base right away since you will be junior and your days off might only be Tues Wed and Sat. The only other thing I can think of that could be a surprise to new hires is senority progression in base if often much slower with all day trips versus the rest of the industry since the bases can't be grown indefinitely unless you were to add multi-day trips.
No min day - there are trips that only pay 2 or 3 hours. No trip rig while the rest of the industry has 1:3.5.
Unlimited monthly TDY's - Some extreme examples in the past were involuntary TDY'd out of your base for 8 or 9 months in a year. Lately involuntary TDY's have been rare though, less than 5 per month system wide.
No duty day limit - after you time out with 117 limits you can still be deadheaded indefinetly.
No long call reserve and short call report time is 90 mins. Unlimited reserve period shifts. No limit to movable days off on reserve outside of 4 gold days.
Days off can be reduced to 10 for 3 months of the year which could be 21 days of reserve in a 31 day month.
Lowest reserve min monthly guarantee in the industry at 72.
No leg by leg provision for overblock pay, only per total duty period.
No reasignment pay outside of greater of the 2.
Deadhead pay is 50%
Vacation pay 20hrs/week and sick time accural 4hrs/month, are the lowest in the industry.
No holiday pay, no international or red eye/night overides.
No snap up clause or pay increases after contract expiration.
No direct contribution retirement, only 401k matching up to 10% vs 15%-18% DC for the rest of the industry.
All of this will be fixed in the next contract which I think will be here later this year, which isn't a popular view but nobody knows for sure including myself. If you get some seniority here the QOL can't be beat. Even if you're junior, reserve can be great in some mid to smaller bases if you don't mind being on the leash. I will occationally bid reserve in the slow months and rarely get called. My lines are as good as it gets in the industry and I wouldn't even want to trade with my buddies on the legacy widebody. I'll typically bid 8+ hour day trips or some months 7.5+ with 20-23 days off and 70-80 hrs credit but I am senior in base. It has been nothing short of incredible living a normal lifestyle and not staying in hotels but right now the pay gap is getting a little rediculous vs other airlines especially since you can upgrade quickly at legacy.
The most important thing to know as a new hire is that it can be very difficult to commute if you don't get your base right away since you will be junior and your days off might only be Tues Wed and Sat. The only other thing I can think of that could be a surprise to new hires is senority progression in base if often much slower with all day trips versus the rest of the industry since the bases can't be grown indefinitely unless you were to add multi-day trips.
Last edited by ORD567; 03-03-2024 at 10:30 AM.
03-03-2024, 10:33 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
Disregard of seniority with must work days, days off you bid for could go junior to you. If you protest you will be told you bid wrong.
No min day - there are trips that only pay 2 or 3 hours. No trip rig while the rest of the industry has 1:3.5.
Unlimited monthly TDY's - Some extreme examples in the past were involuntary TDY'd out of your base for 8 or 9 months in a year. Lately involuntary TDY's have been rare though, less than 5 per month system wide.
No duty day limit - after you time out with 117 limits you can still be deadheaded indefinetly.
No long call reserve and short call report time is 90 mins. Unlimited reserve period shifts. No limit to movable days off on reserve outside of 4 gold days.
Days off can be reduced to 10 for 3 months of the year which could be 21 days of reserve in a 31 day month.
Lowest reserve min monthly guarantee in the industry at 72.
No leg by leg provision for overblock pay, only per total duty period.
No reasignment pay outside of greater of the 2.
Deadhead pay is 50%
Vacation pay 20hrs/week and sick time accural 4hrs/month, are the lowest in the industry.
No holiday pay, no international or red eye/night overides.
No snap up clause or pay increases after contract expiration.
No direct contribution retirement, only 401k matching up to 10% vs 15%-18% DC for the rest of the industry.
All of this will be fixed in the next contract which I think will be here later this year, which isn't a popular view but nobody knows for sure including myself. If you get some seniority here the QOL can't be beat. Even if you're junior, reserve can be great in some mid to smaller bases if you don't mind being on the leash. I will occationally bid reserve in the slow months and rarely get called. My lines are as good as it gets in the industry and I wouldn't even want to trade with my buddies on the legacy widebody. I'll typically bid 8+ hour day trips or some months 7.5+ with 20-23 days off and 70-80 hrs credit but I am senior in base. It has been nothing short of incredible living a normal lifestyle and not staying in hotels but right now the pay gap is getting a little rediculous vs other airlines especially since you can upgrade quickly at legacy.
The most important thing to know as a new hire is that it can be very difficult to commute if you don't get your base right away since you will be junior and your days off might only be Tues Wed and Sat. The only other thing I can think of that could be a surprise to new hires is senority progression in base if often much slower with all day trips versus the rest of the industry since the bases can't be grown indefinitely unless you were to add multi-day trips.
No min day - there are trips that only pay 2 or 3 hours. No trip rig while the rest of the industry has 1:3.5.
Unlimited monthly TDY's - Some extreme examples in the past were involuntary TDY'd out of your base for 8 or 9 months in a year. Lately involuntary TDY's have been rare though, less than 5 per month system wide.
No duty day limit - after you time out with 117 limits you can still be deadheaded indefinetly.
No long call reserve and short call report time is 90 mins. Unlimited reserve period shifts. No limit to movable days off on reserve outside of 4 gold days.
Days off can be reduced to 10 for 3 months of the year which could be 21 days of reserve in a 31 day month.
Lowest reserve min monthly guarantee in the industry at 72.
No leg by leg provision for overblock pay, only per total duty period.
No reasignment pay outside of greater of the 2.
Deadhead pay is 50%
Vacation pay 20hrs/week and sick time accural 4hrs/month, are the lowest in the industry.
No holiday pay, no international or red eye/night overides.
No snap up clause or pay increases after contract expiration.
No direct contribution retirement, only 401k matching up to 10% vs 15%-18% DC for the rest of the industry.
All of this will be fixed in the next contract which I think will be here later this year, which isn't a popular view but nobody knows for sure including myself. If you get some seniority here the QOL can't be beat. Even if you're junior, reserve can be great in some mid to smaller bases if you don't mind being on the leash. I will occationally bid reserve in the slow months and rarely get called. My lines are as good as it gets in the industry and I wouldn't even want to trade with my buddies on the legacy widebody. I'll typically bid 8+ hour day trips or some months 7.5+ with 20-23 days off and 70-80 hrs credit but I am senior in base. It has been nothing short of incredible living a normal lifestyle and not staying in hotels but right now the pay gap is getting a little rediculous vs other airlines especially since you can upgrade quickly at legacy.
The most important thing to know as a new hire is that it can be very difficult to commute if you don't get your base right away since you will be junior and your days off might only be Tues Wed and Sat. The only other thing I can think of that could be a surprise to new hires is senority progression in base if often much slower with all day trips versus the rest of the industry since the bases can't be grown indefinitely unless you were to add multi-day trips.
If we continue to take the time to get this next contract right, this could be the best airline job there is in the industry.
03-03-2024, 10:34 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
Got it, thank you so much for the information! This is very helpful to know. We’re planning to move to whichever base I get - at least for while I’m junior. Are there any specific bases you would recommend that would generally provide good QOL for someone junior? Especially to avoid involuntary TDYs and indefinite deadheads. I just don’t want to move my family to a base, and then be forced to work out of a different base.
03-03-2024, 11:30 AM
#67
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 73
Does that mean that they always just TDY 5-10 last pilots on the overall seniority list? Even if those pilots are already at a junior base?
In any case, if someone could recommend nice bases for QOL for junior FOs, I’d really appreciate it!
In any case, if someone could recommend nice bases for QOL for junior FOs, I’d really appreciate it!
03-03-2024, 11:40 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
What is junior vs senior seems to change regularly, and with the introduction of the 737 that's true now more then ever.
03-03-2024, 09:34 PM
#69
Fly or Die
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 489
03-04-2024, 02:23 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
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