Contract negotiations
09-01-2022, 03:45 PM
#561
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 70
I believe we will get a contract when MG decides it's time and it won't matter how much money we throw at it. But here is the real question I would like AR to answer...what happens to the assessment money that is left when we get the contract? I have respect for AR but I would have a lot more if he put continuing the assessment up to a vote. A lot of things have changes since we voted for that
09-01-2022, 06:41 PM
#562
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 668
This is little league thinking. You think the ALPA chairman of Delta or United is making min credit? The flight pay loss at an major is in the millions of dollars, it's the cost of doing business. The exco is the CEO of our union, he's running a multi-million dollar business and is our agent to get us the maximum amount of money on the next contract. I'm happy he's well compensated and has the resources to get things done.
We are managed like a small, third world dictatorship instead of a mature democracy. I agree with you 9easy we need to start thinking like a big league union instead of subleasing office space from a lawyer that only has one RLA client…
If we are gonna be paying the highest dues in the industry let’s build out the infrastructure. You ever ask your stewards anything? To a man, every single one of them will say that Andrew has to approve everything. Nobody has that much bandwidth. We need committees that can resolve issues instead everything having to be approved by one man at the top.
09-02-2022, 04:52 AM
#563
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
This is little league thinking. You think the ALPA chairman of Delta or United is making min credit? The flight pay loss at an major is in the millions of dollars, it's the cost of doing business. The exco is the CEO of our union, he's running a multi-million dollar business and is our agent to get us the maximum amount of money on the next contract. I'm happy he's well compensated and has the resources to get things done.
What’s little league thinking is having ONE person run the entire union. If we are big league, then we should have multiple people running the union full time. We have the money and there’s more than enough work that needs to be done.
We are managed like a small, third world dictatorship instead of a mature democracy. I agree with you 9easy we need to start thinking like a big league union instead of subleasing office space from a lawyer that only has one RLA client…
If we are gonna be paying the highest dues in the industry let’s build out the infrastructure. You ever ask your stewards anything? To a man, every single one of them will say that Andrew has to approve everything. Nobody has that much bandwidth. We need committees that can resolve issues instead everything having to be approved by one man at the top.
We are managed like a small, third world dictatorship instead of a mature democracy. I agree with you 9easy we need to start thinking like a big league union instead of subleasing office space from a lawyer that only has one RLA client…
If we are gonna be paying the highest dues in the industry let’s build out the infrastructure. You ever ask your stewards anything? To a man, every single one of them will say that Andrew has to approve everything. Nobody has that much bandwidth. We need committees that can resolve issues instead everything having to be approved by one man at the top.
09-02-2022, 06:57 AM
#564
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 279
Probably because he's a paranoid control freak and refuses to delegate anything except to the two or three people on the EXCO that he trusts. If he delegated he wouldn't be so busy. But he also wouldn't be able to cry to the pilot group how he works 24/7 so he needs $350,000+ a year.
Except at Delta or United, that guy is managing a team of hundreds of staff, lawyers, and volunteers (and they pay less dues for all that). Our EXCO is literally Andrew and a few of his trusted buddies who have no accountability to the pilot group especially after he got his new bylaws and got rid of elected stewards.
Exactly! Andrew runs it like a kingdom not a corporation. Everything has to be personally approved by him. He delegates nothing and trusts no one then whines how he works 25 days a month. Plus the sleazy Vegas lawyer who is fleecing us since he can't even seem to win an arbitration, much less negotiate an RLA contract. We've got the money to hire a nationally known aviation law firm, yet we stick with Andrew's buddy who has no RLA/NMB negotiating experience except with us, because Andrew can control that situation.
Except at Delta or United, that guy is managing a team of hundreds of staff, lawyers, and volunteers (and they pay less dues for all that). Our EXCO is literally Andrew and a few of his trusted buddies who have no accountability to the pilot group especially after he got his new bylaws and got rid of elected stewards.
Exactly! Andrew runs it like a kingdom not a corporation. Everything has to be personally approved by him. He delegates nothing and trusts no one then whines how he works 25 days a month. Plus the sleazy Vegas lawyer who is fleecing us since he can't even seem to win an arbitration, much less negotiate an RLA contract. We've got the money to hire a nationally known aviation law firm, yet we stick with Andrew's buddy who has no RLA/NMB negotiating experience except with us, because Andrew can control that situation.
09-02-2022, 07:15 AM
#565
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 207
Lie 1:
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Probably because he's a paranoid control freak and refuses to delegate anything except to the two or three people on the EXCO that he trusts. If he delegated he wouldn't be so busy. But he also wouldn't be able to cry to the pilot group how he works 24/7 so he needs $350,000+ a year.
Lie 2:
Except at Delta or United, that guy is managing a team of hundreds of staff, lawyers, and volunteers (and they pay less dues for all that). Our EXCO is literally Andrew and a few of his trusted buddies who have no accountability to the pilot group especially after he got his new bylaws and got rid of elected stewards.
Lie 3:
Exactly! Andrew runs it like a kingdom not a corporation. Everything has to be personally approved by him. He delegates nothing and trusts no one then whines how he works 25 days a month. Plus the sleazy Vegas lawyer who is fleecing us since he can't even seem to win an arbitration, much less negotiate an RLA contract. We've got the money to hire a nationally known aviation law firm, yet we stick with Andrew's buddy who has no RLA/NMB negotiating experience except with us, because Andrew can control that situation.
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Last edited by 310skying; 09-02-2022 at 07:32 AM.
09-02-2022, 08:38 AM
#566
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
Lie 1:
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Clearly you're a union insider so I wouldn't expect anything less from you. You have your spin and I have mine. The pilots can believe whoever they want here on this anonymous message board.
I don't hate Andrew. I'm sure he's a nice guy. But he needs to be held accountable. I know you guys don't like that, but tough.
Everyone also needs to be reminded of the shenanigans when we broke away from 1224 with Gleason and Untersherer like Nate said. Andrew ****ed a lot of people off at airline division and it only took one change of leadership at the top to change the political landscape in their favor. I really hope the middle fingers he gave everyone don't come back to haunt us. Talk about bull in a china shop, but hey he got his freedom without oversight.
I won't call you a liar though like you did to me. That would be disrespectful hyperbole and a weak ad-hominem attack.
I guess this is the part where you think I'll just stick my tail between my legs and skulk off. Don't count on it.
09-02-2022, 08:38 AM
#567
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 279
Lie 1:
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
09-02-2022, 08:44 AM
#568
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
09-02-2022, 10:05 AM
#569
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 668
Lie 1:
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
Fact: Andrew delegates a large amount of work to over 50 union stewards and volunteers. Andrew has to take on a bulk of the work because the company will not approve more than 3-5 people taking FPL per month. They do this to purposely hamstring our union. Andrew can’t just magically hand out FPL, it has to be approved by g4 management if it isn’t for the top 3 union officials
Lie 2:
Fact: our E Board (yes it’s called an E board now) is made up of a diverse group of pilots with varying seniority, political views, and opinions. Out side of the e board we have 5-10% of the pilot group volunteering to help 2118 (because the company won’t approve FPL). but go ahead and keep crapping on Andrew and 2118 for problems Maury and the Csuite are creating.
Lie 3:
Fact: we stick with Urban because he has won far more grievances, and lawsuits (you know that while federal court debacle maury likes to use after we win arbitrations) than he has lost. Also with the company being incorporated in NV there are specific NV rules and regulations that he is familiar with. We also use a small amount of our money to pay for industry lobbyists and information. Also mike urban is not the only representation we have at the table for negotiations we also have SH from teamsters national (has negotiated multiple contracts under the RLA).
also you can’t have it both ways… do we have 10mill in the bank, or are we being fleeced by a two bit Vegas lawyer?
Marg, your half truths and lies are just harmful. I see you troll all the other forums here too, so you have 3 options from my pint of view.
1. if you want a new contract at G4: shut up, be patient, let the process work, and complain when the roadshows start. Or if you want to complain keep it to S. Sheldon, TT, or our labor relations team.
2. If you hate Andrew so much, and think this is such a crap place. Go fly for American, they seem to be your second favorite forum
3. wait 5 years and run against Andrew with your own slate…. Or retire, because with your attitude I doubt you have more than 5 years left in the pointy end of an aluminum tube.
However, if AR takes long term UB he can’t bid a line in PGD and bank 120-150 PCH a month in flight pay loss. Not saying that is why he hasn’t taken long term UB but I’m sure it’s something he’s at least thought about.
As for Urban winning those arbitrations, we’ve lost 6 in a row and several of them we were promised would be easy wins (like picking up SAP should pay above guarantee). I’m sure urban is a good attorney, but it is playing with straight fire that he has never negotiated an RLA contract yet. Think about this: he’s never even dealt with the NMB. Maybe he’s crazy talented. But we’ve got the money, we should be paying for experienced RLA to negotiate this contract and get us through NMB mediation when that day comes.
Makes me nervous that AR has never negotiated before and he’s leaning on an inexperienced lawyer who looks like a slick Vegas personal injury attorney. We’ve got the resources, we should have real attorneys working this. We should have at least three people dedicated to the union at all times (that’s the max our contract allows and our company can’t say a word about it).
Think bigger y’all. We’ve got the resources and it’s obvious that there’s work that needs to be done. We are paying more than any other union in the industry, no reason we shouldn’t have better infrastructure, more full time union reps, and the best lawyers money can buy.
09-02-2022, 10:25 AM
#570
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
Look guys. I'll agree that tearing the EXCO apart is counter productive, especially during negotiations. I'm not even sure how we got off on this tangent. However it's annoying how some of you act like he's the 2nd coming of christ and above criticism. Andrew is a man who took a job. A job that a lot of people in this pilot group could do and have done. It would be one thing if he had a long record of delivering arbitration wins and great contracts, but in his 6 year or so reign, he's batting 500 on arbitrations and we haven't seen a contract. All we've gotten is a whole lot of drama. More than I've ever seen at any airline. He sold the 1224 breakaway as this great thing that would funnel all this money in and solve all our problems but all it did was **** off the rest of IBT and make him completely autonomous. Hasn't improved our situation at all, despite his strong words. All the resources wasted on the breakup could have been used against the real enemy, allegiant management.
We need to trust but verify. Ask hard questions. Demand our resources are used wisely. I don't give anyone in my life blank checks and the union doesn't deserve one either. You fanboys seem to think so, but that's not how business is done.
We need to trust but verify. Ask hard questions. Demand our resources are used wisely. I don't give anyone in my life blank checks and the union doesn't deserve one either. You fanboys seem to think so, but that's not how business is done.
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