Contract negotiations
05-20-2022, 08:31 AM
#291
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
ADD days are another arbitration that was supposed to be an easy for the win but…rumor is that union doesn’t even want to arbitrate it anymore because they think we will lose based on the RAP arbitration.
Instead of relying on some interpretation to get paid more soft time, just pay me more. Again that cannot be ignored. All the crap we have been losing is the soft time that that old regime tried to negotiate into the contract but didn’t do a good enough job apparently. The soft time can be left to interpretation like ADD days, RAPs, SAP going abg, removal pay for vfns, pay per flight segment instead of per trip pairing, all of these are soft time arbitrations that we have lost or will prolly lose.
I’m all for getting a better contract with soft time, legacy language, etc. I just have no faith that management will honor it (anybody really think crew services gonna change anything?). I also have little faith the union will be able to enforce the contract through arbitration. At best, arbitration is a coin toss - lately it has been much worse. Its just my opinion, but I think anybody that’s been here for sometime knows that what I’m saying rings true.
Just ask yourself: do you really think that just because we rewrite the contract that foster and scheduling will stop telling us to fly now, grieve later??? Y’all are too cute… maybe I’ll sell you some swampland for $600m.
Instead of relying on some interpretation to get paid more soft time, just pay me more. Again that cannot be ignored. All the crap we have been losing is the soft time that that old regime tried to negotiate into the contract but didn’t do a good enough job apparently. The soft time can be left to interpretation like ADD days, RAPs, SAP going abg, removal pay for vfns, pay per flight segment instead of per trip pairing, all of these are soft time arbitrations that we have lost or will prolly lose.
I’m all for getting a better contract with soft time, legacy language, etc. I just have no faith that management will honor it (anybody really think crew services gonna change anything?). I also have little faith the union will be able to enforce the contract through arbitration. At best, arbitration is a coin toss - lately it has been much worse. Its just my opinion, but I think anybody that’s been here for sometime knows that what I’m saying rings true.
Just ask yourself: do you really think that just because we rewrite the contract that foster and scheduling will stop telling us to fly now, grieve later??? Y’all are too cute… maybe I’ll sell you some swampland for $600m.
The only new contract anyone here is going to get are those sweeeet 20% raises at UA, DAL and AA.
Last edited by FreshWater; 05-20-2022 at 08:51 AM.
05-20-2022, 09:20 AM
#293
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,170
Here's the thing guys. I'm sure the EXCO with no prior negotiating experience and their unelected negotiators and their former sleazy Vegas lawyer turned labor champion think they're real smart but when you've got management like allegiant that just doesn't care about doing the right thing even the best language is worthless. The recent arbitration losses should be a wake up call. The emperor has no clothes.
Go spend some time on the Delta and American forums and listen to the "we didn't think they'd do that" complaints as their companies violate their contracts. These are mature contracts that have been around more than 50 years written by some of the best lawyers in the industry and their management still shoots holes in them. You think these cabrones we've got here are going to be smarter? Nah. We can stroke it for the next 3 years writing great language and then watch the economy collapse so no pay bumps then be stuck with low pay and language they ignore or we can take enough money now that it won't matter. Now that United has apparently set the bar I say take the cold cash because it's a lot harder for them to steal that from us. Work rules will always be useless at this company. It's a fools errand.
But keep tilting at windmills if it makes you feel better.
I actually don't envy AR. Do ya put out the company offer for mind blowing money out for vote when it comes in a couple months (and you know it will pass) or do you explain to people why money isn't as important and we need to wait some indeterminate time for unknown work rules with unknown effectiveness? Tough call. Not really. 50%+1 vote. That's all you need. EXCO knows how to count votes.
Go spend some time on the Delta and American forums and listen to the "we didn't think they'd do that" complaints as their companies violate their contracts. These are mature contracts that have been around more than 50 years written by some of the best lawyers in the industry and their management still shoots holes in them. You think these cabrones we've got here are going to be smarter? Nah. We can stroke it for the next 3 years writing great language and then watch the economy collapse so no pay bumps then be stuck with low pay and language they ignore or we can take enough money now that it won't matter. Now that United has apparently set the bar I say take the cold cash because it's a lot harder for them to steal that from us. Work rules will always be useless at this company. It's a fools errand.
But keep tilting at windmills if it makes you feel better.
I actually don't envy AR. Do ya put out the company offer for mind blowing money out for vote when it comes in a couple months (and you know it will pass) or do you explain to people why money isn't as important and we need to wait some indeterminate time for unknown work rules with unknown effectiveness? Tough call. Not really. 50%+1 vote. That's all you need. EXCO knows how to count votes.
05-20-2022, 09:33 AM
#294
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Here's the thing guys. I'm sure the EXCO with no prior negotiating experience and their unelected negotiators and their former sleazy Vegas lawyer turned labor champion think they're real smart but when you've got management like allegiant that just doesn't care about doing the right thing even the best language is worthless. The recent arbitration losses should be a wake up call. The emperor has no clothes.
Go spend some time on the Delta and American forums and listen to the "we didn't think they'd do that" complaints as their companies violate their contracts. These are mature contracts that have been around more than 50 years written by some of the best lawyers in the industry and their management still shoots holes in them. You think these cabrones we've got here are going to be smarter? Nah. We can stroke it for the next 3 years writing great language and then watch the economy collapse so no pay bumps then be stuck with low pay and language they ignore or we can take enough money now that it won't matter. Now that United has apparently set the bar I say take the cold cash because it's a lot harder for them to steal that from us. Work rules will always be useless at this company. It's a fools errand.
But keep tilting at windmills if it makes you feel better.
I actually don't envy AR. Do ya put out the company offer for mind blowing money out for vote when it comes in a couple months (and you know it will pass) or do you explain to people why money isn't as important and we need to wait some indeterminate time for unknown work rules with unknown effectiveness? Tough call. Not really. 50%+1 vote. That's all you need. EXCO knows how to count votes.
Go spend some time on the Delta and American forums and listen to the "we didn't think they'd do that" complaints as their companies violate their contracts. These are mature contracts that have been around more than 50 years written by some of the best lawyers in the industry and their management still shoots holes in them. You think these cabrones we've got here are going to be smarter? Nah. We can stroke it for the next 3 years writing great language and then watch the economy collapse so no pay bumps then be stuck with low pay and language they ignore or we can take enough money now that it won't matter. Now that United has apparently set the bar I say take the cold cash because it's a lot harder for them to steal that from us. Work rules will always be useless at this company. It's a fools errand.
But keep tilting at windmills if it makes you feel better.
I actually don't envy AR. Do ya put out the company offer for mind blowing money out for vote when it comes in a couple months (and you know it will pass) or do you explain to people why money isn't as important and we need to wait some indeterminate time for unknown work rules with unknown effectiveness? Tough call. Not really. 50%+1 vote. That's all you need. EXCO knows how to count votes.
filler
05-20-2022, 10:20 AM
#295
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,170
Well you're just one no vote. 50%+ 1 is what matters and I'm confident that a cash and retirement offer would get enough votes today. AR knows it too. Question is if he has the balls to sit on it and not put it out. So far he seems pretty ballsy. Be interesting to see which side can apply more pressure. Lots of people think now is the time to lock in.
05-20-2022, 12:36 PM
#296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: A-320
Posts: 175
Well you're just one no vote. 50%+ 1 is what matters and I'm confident that a cash and retirement offer would get enough votes today. AR knows it too. Question is if he has the balls to sit on it and not put it out. So far he seems pretty ballsy. Be interesting to see which side can apply more pressure. Lots of people think now is the time to lock in.
If any pilot takes the quick cash (if its ever even presented) the bottom half of this company will be gone, and the top half will feel the bottom half's pain. If Allegiant wants to break a contract going forward, they will reap what they sow. But that contract is the only thing that will get my vote, Any pilot who votes for any garbage less than industry has no business in this industry and needs to be railroaded out.
05-20-2022, 01:12 PM
#297
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,013
I see 9/10 saying sink it. 50%+1 ain't in the wheel house.
If any pilot takes the quick cash (if its ever even presented) the bottom half of this company will be gone, and the top half will feel the bottom half's pain. If Allegiant wants to break a contract going forward, they will reap what they sow. But that contract is the only thing that will get my vote, Any pilot who votes for any garbage less than industry has no business in this industry and needs to be railroaded out.
If any pilot takes the quick cash (if its ever even presented) the bottom half of this company will be gone, and the top half will feel the bottom half's pain. If Allegiant wants to break a contract going forward, they will reap what they sow. But that contract is the only thing that will get my vote, Any pilot who votes for any garbage less than industry has no business in this industry and needs to be railroaded out.
05-20-2022, 01:15 PM
#298
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Well you're just one no vote. 50%+ 1 is what matters and I'm confident that a cash and retirement offer would get enough votes today. AR knows it too. Question is if he has the balls to sit on it and not put it out. So far he seems pretty ballsy. Be interesting to see which side can apply more pressure. Lots of people think now is the time to lock in.
05-20-2022, 01:33 PM
#299
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 207
The survey contradicts this. And the majority overall sentiment contradicts this. The survey wasn’t even close to 50%+1 pay only contract. During the great allegiant management furlough, management threatened to terminate AR because he wouldn’t agree to concessions. Management threatened to fire him and furlough the bottom. They Furloughed. Some of the furloughs were harassing him personally; calling him directly begging him to accept concessions. He didn’t buckle then.
Never forget Thant our guys did a bang up job getting us through the furlough and pandemic by standing up to management at every corner that we needed them to. I think the EXCO is going to give us a contract with great work rules and rates… they all personally said it’s the only thing that they would even consider voting on.
05-20-2022, 01:47 PM
#300
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Nate and Marg are serious pessimists and conspiracy theorists. I’m sure Maury loves seeing that his aura of being a hard-ass has such a reputation here. Nate loves to bring up arbitration issues that haven’t even been heard yet, and Marg thinks Andrew is dirtier than Hoffa Sr.
Never forget Thant our guys did a bang up job getting us through the furlough and pandemic by standing up to management at every corner that we needed them to. I think the EXCO is going to give us a contract with great work rules and rates… they all personally said it’s the only thing that they would even consider voting on.
Never forget Thant our guys did a bang up job getting us through the furlough and pandemic by standing up to management at every corner that we needed them to. I think the EXCO is going to give us a contract with great work rules and rates… they all personally said it’s the only thing that they would even consider voting on.
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