Contract negotiations
05-18-2022, 04:19 PM
#281
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 566
The reason UA can get a AIP so fast is because they have a century worth of great contract language that holds both sides accountable. Unfortunately our current contract language looks like it was written by a bad paralegal. People say the company doesn't follow the contract, but the fact often lies in between - the current contract is written so poorly that there is room for interpretation on both sides. Add to that, horrible note keeping by the last negotiations team, and when there is ambiguity we all know the arbitrator tends to rule on the side of the company. This new contract doesn't need to be 500 pages like DL/UA, but it needs clear and concise language, with examples, negotiation notes, and a faster way to execute disagreements in the future. It's not really shooting for the moon, this is little league regional stuff that any ALPA airline would do.
05-19-2022, 03:50 AM
#282
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: A-320
Posts: 175
I get that he wants certainty for what happens when the contract is violated. But the certainty is arbitration. There is no other mechanism to enforce the contract with the RLA hanging over our heads.
The problem is we keep getting told that arbitration wins are coming but then we keep losing the “industry standard” arbitrations. Union was super confident about VFNs, rental cars, SAP going abg, Merlot, etc. and we’ve lost all of them. If we lose the RAPs one then that is a long losing streak.
The strategy worked for a while but something happened and now all do we lose. I don’t want the hope of winning arbitrations to enforce the next contract. This just seems like stuff to make the exco and AR’s job easier. He’s not some selfless leader that is just trying to serve others (see his PGD line every month), he’s a politician making sure he gets his and imo all this noise about sections 18 and 19 are more for his benefit than mine.
Just pay me more money. Make vfns 300%, increase my guarantee, increase my rates, top notch retirement DC, etc. all those numbers cannot be argued or manipulated. Those numbers I know I will get because numbers do not lie.
The problem is we keep getting told that arbitration wins are coming but then we keep losing the “industry standard” arbitrations. Union was super confident about VFNs, rental cars, SAP going abg, Merlot, etc. and we’ve lost all of them. If we lose the RAPs one then that is a long losing streak.
The strategy worked for a while but something happened and now all do we lose. I don’t want the hope of winning arbitrations to enforce the next contract. This just seems like stuff to make the exco and AR’s job easier. He’s not some selfless leader that is just trying to serve others (see his PGD line every month), he’s a politician making sure he gets his and imo all this noise about sections 18 and 19 are more for his benefit than mine.
Just pay me more money. Make vfns 300%, increase my guarantee, increase my rates, top notch retirement DC, etc. all those numbers cannot be argued or manipulated. Those numbers I know I will get because numbers do not lie.
Look, the reason we keep loosing arbitrations is the turd of a contract a bunch of sell-outs voted for last time. Those guys need to keep quiet or find another industry.
We will not be part of the crap that has plagued this pilot group for the past 6 years. It is time to bring G4 to the same level as the other players with these aircraft. Anything less is a total disgrace to the industry. 90% or better of those who I speak to agree. no contract unless its the right contract. Let the company shrink if they want to play games with their share price. If G4 cant match the true competitors (Jet Blue, Southwest etc, not Alevo, Breeze and Suncountry) then it needs to go away, become a distant memory.
05-19-2022, 05:22 AM
#283
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 5
No way. Its a hard No from me on a quick pay deal.
Look, the reason we keep loosing arbitrations is the turd of a contract a bunch of sell-outs voted for last time. Those guys need to keep quiet or find another industry.
We will not be part of the crap that has plagued this pilot group for the past 6 years. It is time to bring G4 to the same level as the other players with these aircraft. Anything less is a total disgrace to the industry. 90% or better of those who I speak to agree. no contract unless its the right contract. Let the company shrink if they want to play games with their share price. If G4 cant match the true competitors (Jet Blue, Southwest etc, not Alevo, Breeze and Suncountry) then it needs to go away, become a distant memory.
Look, the reason we keep loosing arbitrations is the turd of a contract a bunch of sell-outs voted for last time. Those guys need to keep quiet or find another industry.
We will not be part of the crap that has plagued this pilot group for the past 6 years. It is time to bring G4 to the same level as the other players with these aircraft. Anything less is a total disgrace to the industry. 90% or better of those who I speak to agree. no contract unless its the right contract. Let the company shrink if they want to play games with their share price. If G4 cant match the true competitors (Jet Blue, Southwest etc, not Alevo, Breeze and Suncountry) then it needs to go away, become a distant memory.
05-19-2022, 08:11 AM
#285
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Agreed. It’s funny that guys are screaming that payrates are hard numbers and can’t be argued. Agreed, but the multiplier is in the language. You may be happy making $600/hr, but thought you were going to make 89 hours and they “don’t see it that way” because an ADD day has no value, but it does when you pick stuff up. Or whatever other interpretations they want to make. You just lost 19 hours at $600. I don’t get why guys don’t understand this. Must be a few years from retirement.
05-19-2022, 08:26 AM
#286
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: A-320
Posts: 680
310sky your optimism is adorable but you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I just hope you aren't making any career decisions based on your misinterpretation of the exco's recent update which had no such quick timeline as you're assuming. Today's UAL new hires will be making 400k in the left seat before we have a new TA. If anyone thinks we will be the first airline of this millennium to reach a TA before the 2 year mark and not go to mediation with our current management then you honestly need to check yourself into the HIMS program and get back to reality.
05-19-2022, 10:30 PM
#288
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 713
Agreed. It’s funny that guys are screaming that payrates are hard numbers and can’t be argued. Agreed, but the multiplier is in the language. You may be happy making $600/hr, but thought you were going to make 89 hours and they “don’t see it that way” because an ADD day has no value, but it does when you pick stuff up. Or whatever other interpretations they want to make. You just lost 19 hours at $600. I don’t get why guys don’t understand this. Must be a few years from retirement.
Instead of relying on some interpretation to get paid more soft time, just pay me more. Again that cannot be ignored. All the crap we have been losing is the soft time that that old regime tried to negotiate into the contract but didn’t do a good enough job apparently. The soft time can be left to interpretation like ADD days, RAPs, SAP going abg, removal pay for vfns, pay per flight segment instead of per trip pairing, all of these are soft time arbitrations that we have lost or will prolly lose.
I’m all for getting a better contract with soft time, legacy language, etc. I just have no faith that management will honor it (anybody really think crew services gonna change anything?). I also have little faith the union will be able to enforce the contract through arbitration. At best, arbitration is a coin toss - lately it has been much worse. Its just my opinion, but I think anybody that’s been here for sometime knows that what I’m saying rings true.
Just ask yourself: do you really think that just because we rewrite the contract that foster and scheduling will stop telling us to fly now, grieve later??? Y’all are too cute… maybe I’ll sell you some swampland for $600m.
05-20-2022, 01:20 AM
#289
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: A-320
Posts: 175
ADD days are another arbitration that was supposed to be an easy for the win but…rumor is that union doesn’t even want to arbitrate it anymore because they think we will lose based on the RAP arbitration.
Instead of relying on some interpretation to get paid more soft time, just pay me more. Again that cannot be ignored. All the crap we have been losing is the soft time that that old regime tried to negotiate into the contract but didn’t do a good enough job apparently. The soft time can be left to interpretation like ADD days, RAPs, SAP going abg, removal pay for vfns, pay per flight segment instead of per trip pairing, all of these are soft time arbitrations that we have lost or will prolly lose.
I’m all for getting a better contract with soft time, legacy language, etc. I just have no faith that management will honor it (anybody really think crew services gonna change anything?). I also have little faith the union will be able to enforce the contract through arbitration. At best, arbitration is a coin toss - lately it has been much worse. Its just my opinion, but I think anybody that’s been here for sometime knows that what I’m saying rings true.
Just ask yourself: do you really think that just because we rewrite the contract that foster and scheduling will stop telling us to fly now, grieve later??? Y’all are too cute… maybe I’ll sell you some swampland for $600m.
Instead of relying on some interpretation to get paid more soft time, just pay me more. Again that cannot be ignored. All the crap we have been losing is the soft time that that old regime tried to negotiate into the contract but didn’t do a good enough job apparently. The soft time can be left to interpretation like ADD days, RAPs, SAP going abg, removal pay for vfns, pay per flight segment instead of per trip pairing, all of these are soft time arbitrations that we have lost or will prolly lose.
I’m all for getting a better contract with soft time, legacy language, etc. I just have no faith that management will honor it (anybody really think crew services gonna change anything?). I also have little faith the union will be able to enforce the contract through arbitration. At best, arbitration is a coin toss - lately it has been much worse. Its just my opinion, but I think anybody that’s been here for sometime knows that what I’m saying rings true.
Just ask yourself: do you really think that just because we rewrite the contract that foster and scheduling will stop telling us to fly now, grieve later??? Y’all are too cute… maybe I’ll sell you some swampland for $600m.
Full Fair Contract, or Bust!
05-20-2022, 05:44 AM
#290
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 948
There are many needed QOL improvements that need to happen that don’t require the Magna Carta & aren’t open to interpretation.
Schedules can’t be built with single days off
Ground deadhead only LL, period
RAP’s can’t be moved unless forced by legality
Vacation pay trips missed & you can slide 3 days
Min days off increased
Min pay 5 hours
Red eyes one leg go to hotel
etc…..
I’m sure you all can think of dozens more.
Schedules can’t be built with single days off
Ground deadhead only LL, period
RAP’s can’t be moved unless forced by legality
Vacation pay trips missed & you can slide 3 days
Min days off increased
Min pay 5 hours
Red eyes one leg go to hotel
etc…..
I’m sure you all can think of dozens more.
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