Margaritaville

I do believe that GU is there to avenge 1224 and give you all a big middle finger for kicking over the apple cart with the new Local. Not to be trusted. But he's in control as the trustee and O'Brien is showing he's no friend of the Airline Division. He's going to be all about the package delivery folks and just suck money out of the rest while investing minimal resources. Only way to fix that is to ditch IBT but that's a major undertaking that I'm not sure you have the horsepower to pull off. Wet dream of management is guys in Nate's seniority band vote the union off the property and go back to AAPAG to get what they want.

tom11011

I think that's a little over dramatic. Nobody asked for trusteeship, it happened because of the way certain pilots ran the union so control was taken away. They weren't angling to insert themselves as trustees.

Margaritaville

No I just think that GU and others from the past smelled blood in the water.

captnate702

you are being way too emotional about all of this. I'm being logical: I would rather get 90% of legacy rates and retirement now than wait two more years with the hope of getting 95% of legacy rates and retirement. That is the question. Pilots like you are too emotional about it and think the rates in the contract reflect your value as a professional or human being. You would rather have the rates in the cba be higher even if that comes at the expense of money in your pocket and retirement account - THAT IS CRAZY but i understand pilots like you are ego driven..

I know that the rates in the cba whether they are 4.5% less than delta or 9.3% less than delta they will not impact my self-esteem or professional worth. what matters is money in my pocket and my retirement account - that is the money i count. and i will have more money in my bank account now and in retirement if we get a deal that is 85-90% delta rates and retirement than waiting for two more years with the hope of getting a deal that is 93-96% of delta.

don't be so emotional. just think with your wallet not your ego.

now you'll say i am just a management shill or too senior to know better, blah blah blah. but that doesn't change the fact that i am right. there is 90% or more chance that we never get released or even given a cooling off period by the NMB. our union has been so schizophrenic with negotiations that the mediator will no way release us. we are basically just starting negotiations even tho we more than three years - as you said yourself we just started negotiating the hardest, most time consuming sections. so that leaves with us at least two more years of negotiating (not to mention the market has done a complete shift for pilot hiring).

so if we are very very unlikely ever to be released by the NMB then we will are equally unlikely to get legacy pay or compensation but we will get close (within 80-95% of pay). currently we are around 60% of delta rates and maybe half of delta for retirement. management already proposed rates around 88% of delta (top out rate is 91.67% other steps are lower so its somewhere in the 87-89% range of delta) and retirement that is about 83.33% of delta (15% DC vs 18% DC).

Now i think we all understand that we are never getting delta pay and retirement its just not gonna happen in this environment and we will not get released if we insist on delta pay, lets be realistic. so how close can we get? probably around 90%. if company are already made public the rates that are ~88% of delta those are obviously not the last offer, so let's add a couple percent and call it ~90% that we could get before the end of the year. getting that 90% 18-24 months sooner than the 95% of delta rates that we hope and pray we could get (it could also still be 90% two years from now). Now when you factor in retirement and the DC, depending on how long til age 65 and the money we are missing out on is astronomical. even those over 50 with the DC in retirement you can still add the extra $7,500 and max out the retirement for personal contribution at 30.5k. even those that don't have the benefit of 20-30 years til 65 and all the compounding interest are still losing out on mid six figure amounts at retirement by waiting another two years for a deal that MIGHT get us 95% of what delta has.

again, i am not trying to be a troll (with this post, i am certainly down for trolling here and there) or just complain into the ether. these are conversations i've tried having with the union reps and it is like talking to a brick wall. i suspect it is coming from GU and everybody is falling in line. it is undeniable that the line pilots will be better off financially with 90% of delta rates and retirement in 2024 than hoping and praying for 95% of delta rates and retirement in 2026. so why isn't a deal getting done??? because it doesn't benefit GU and the IBT to have a deal that is noticeably less than delta - how would IBT and GU justify going with the teamsters instead of ALPA when they try to recruit other pilot groups? the ego involved is screwing the line pilots here and that is frustrating. we are professionals and i would hope that the numbers, math and bottom line matter more than the egos of the union boss and NC.

jimmy8

agreed. Tonight’s trustee meeting was a joke and just another show that GU has accomplished absolutely nothing. We need to get ALPA in the door asap if we want an industry standard contract by next summer. The fact we have John Wentz (who has negotiated **** contracts for other airlines, ie. netjets and atlas), and a bunch of pilots who have no experience negotiating this contract is pathetic. We need to be hiring consultants to negotiate and have two or three pilots sitting in. Not a single one of them have any real experience in the room

tom11011

Emotional? Where?

Pilots are a cost of doing business. An A320 and 737 cost a certain amount of money and you pay it. Fuel costs, hotels, IT etc it all costs money. They pay. Because they have to.

And you misread my post, it’s not the money. They can keep the pay rates the same if they want to in my view.

bluespoon

This is probably the worst time in recent history to be asking for Delta pay just because “it’s the cost of doing business”. And that is not exactly true, just like operating cost of fuel, they can still try to save money on it other ways. Not only are LCCs struggling to make money with rising labor costs and lower liquidity but there’s a giant elephant in the room with the status of Spirit. If they do file BK or worse… good luck negotiating. I would just lock something in now while you still can like the other guy said.

tom11011

I will say it again, the pay doesn't need to change much. As I mentioned to the other poster, please re-read.

SladeTin

The pay doesn’t need to change much?? As if I couldn’t take you seriously before, now I really can’t!

tom11011

It doesn't have to be Delta if we keep the out and back model. Plus the soft time options will increase overall pay. Min days, rigs, Deadhead and more.