Contract negotiations
01-25-2023, 04:24 AM
#1261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Captain for Skyhawks
Posts: 479
The surprise here is if you went this route then the work rules would be so bad that you would get paid %50 for being pilot monitoring while being junior maned into your day off. But hey you have nice pay and no work rules.
01-25-2023, 05:51 AM
#1262
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,170
To switch gears on the topic and respond to yours, even with a great contract, I am not sure we can survive at our size with what is coming, we have to acquire or be acquired. People forget we do not even reach the peak of the attrition problem for another 3-4 years, then after that its 5 more years of what we are seeing today. The home every night thing is great for our little boutique airline running with 20 year old airplanes that are paid in full, but if there is nobody here to fly them I am not sure it matters much.
We proposed a min % of trips must be day trips, management rejected it and sources say it hasn't been brought up since. If there is min% of trips must be day trips then that is a difficult thing to "ignore" when its a number that can easily be quantified. Similar to min # of days in a month, etc.
Y'all can poo poo my biggest asks, and my "sample size" but none of you have mentioned any other reason for being here. Margi, tom, tailend, etc. why are you all here if not for the day trips? please give me one reason you are still here? if you don't have other options, i get it. But anybody with options would be crazy to stay here unless they valued the day trips. there is nothing that this place offers to keep somebody here...
Still waiting to hear of any reason why someone would stay here if not for the day trips...
Y'all can poo poo my biggest asks, and my "sample size" but none of you have mentioned any other reason for being here. Margi, tom, tailend, etc. why are you all here if not for the day trips? please give me one reason you are still here? if you don't have other options, i get it. But anybody with options would be crazy to stay here unless they valued the day trips. there is nothing that this place offers to keep somebody here...
Still waiting to hear of any reason why someone would stay here if not for the day trips...
I agree its ridiculous that management isn't agreeing to any of the things that actually matter - no disagreement here. No contract even gets voted without some LTD.
I'm not saying my 25 pilots were a representative sample, but you sure as hell don't need a third of the population to respond for a poll to be representative. Pollsters frequently sample less than 1-2% of a population and get incredible results - so long as the people being sampled are representative. I admit that the 25 ppl i spoke with are not representative of the entire group, but I am telling none of them are worried about a TAFB rig, or duty rig, unstack, etc. what they want is security of the day trips and the bases they are living in. Forcing MG to agree to a min % of day trips would provide some of that security (not all of it).
I'm not saying my 25 pilots were a representative sample, but you sure as hell don't need a third of the population to respond for a poll to be representative. Pollsters frequently sample less than 1-2% of a population and get incredible results - so long as the people being sampled are representative. I admit that the 25 ppl i spoke with are not representative of the entire group, but I am telling none of them are worried about a TAFB rig, or duty rig, unstack, etc. what they want is security of the day trips and the bases they are living in. Forcing MG to agree to a min % of day trips would provide some of that security (not all of it).
there is no way to guarantee day trips. All you can do is negotiate pay premiums for multi day trips to create a financial incentive to the company for day trips. No management team would ever sign a contract that inhibits their ability to operate the airline as you suggest.
I agree. I can take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed. Any one who has worked at Allegiant should know that those types of guarantees mean nothing. The way to incentivize the company to have more day trips is to pay a lot more for overnight trips. Then at least the pilots who are losing on the schedule gain on the money. Who gets paid when the company violates the percent of day trips? Does that just get paid out to those that filed a grievance? no thanks.
01-25-2023, 09:26 AM
#1264
Voice of Reason
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Uncomfortable
Posts: 481
We proposed a min % of trips must be day trips, management rejected it and sources say it hasn't been brought up since. If there is min% of trips must be day trips then that is a difficult thing to "ignore" when its a number that can easily be quantified. Similar to min # of days in a month, etc.
Y'all can poo poo my biggest asks, and my "sample size" but none of you have mentioned any other reason for being here. Margi, tom, tailend, etc. why are you all here if not for the day trips? please give me one reason you are still here? if you don't have other options, i get it. But anybody with options would be crazy to stay here unless they valued the day trips. there is nothing that this place offers to keep somebody here...
Still waiting to hear of any reason why someone would stay here if not for the day trips...
Y'all can poo poo my biggest asks, and my "sample size" but none of you have mentioned any other reason for being here. Margi, tom, tailend, etc. why are you all here if not for the day trips? please give me one reason you are still here? if you don't have other options, i get it. But anybody with options would be crazy to stay here unless they valued the day trips. there is nothing that this place offers to keep somebody here...
Still waiting to hear of any reason why someone would stay here if not for the day trips...
You said this multiple times. Do you mind saying who told you that? Not one person I spoke to on the NC or E Board (Granted I have not spoken to 100% of the E Board) has said that Day Trips are a line in the sand (to be fair they haven't even said that having ANY % of day trips are a line in the sand). What I have heard is that they will not let the company ignore both scenarios. Either:
1. The company agrees to a minimum % of day trips
2. The company agrees to a TAFB, overrides, and hotel language
So far the company refuses to do either of those things, which is unacceptable.
For those asking how that would be paid out (breaking the day trip %), one way is to do graduated pay overrides for breaking the percentages. (i.e. 1%-5% violation pays a 10% override to all pilots, 6%-10% violation pays a 20% override, >10% violation pays a 30% override to the entire group). Black and white, easy to defend and payout, etc.
I think the scheduling arbitration is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The union has won multiple arbitrations and the company keeps suing and appealing the decisions. The union just won the hearing saying that the arbitration can move forward and will now be heard for the umpteenth time, and the union will win again. Of course, the company needs another six months to prepare for the arbitration that has been going on for years at this point. They know they will lose and lose big at the end of the process. They are just delaying the inevitable and hoping they can gain some way to leverage the new CBA into making all the arbitrations go away.
01-25-2023, 11:08 AM
#1265
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 21
Could be in the scope section with expedited arbitration like our current wet lease stuff. Could be in scheduling where any base that doesn’t get the min % of day trips is paid an extra amount for the entire BES.
But I’m not the one getting paid $600k to negotiate this contract but for $600k I’m sure I could come up with something.
Of course AR could negotiate that stuff. I just think it’s funny that y’all don’t want this work rule because company won’t follow it but then want to strike over other work rules as if the company will obey those ones because they are supposedly “industry standard.”
Makes perfect sense.
But I’m not the one getting paid $600k to negotiate this contract but for $600k I’m sure I could come up with something.
Of course AR could negotiate that stuff. I just think it’s funny that y’all don’t want this work rule because company won’t follow it but then want to strike over other work rules as if the company will obey those ones because they are supposedly “industry standard.”
Makes perfect sense.
01-25-2023, 03:16 PM
#1266
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 948
Sounds like we’re all good then…..long as they promise real hard to keep day trips & give us real LTD - the majority are ready to take the deal in the mailer they sent home?
BTW there’s 32 pilots being TDY’d in March - wonder if they care about more than hourly rates & day trips?
BTW there’s 32 pilots being TDY’d in March - wonder if they care about more than hourly rates & day trips?
01-25-2023, 04:05 PM
#1267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 948
You said this multiple times. Do you mind saying who told you that? Not one person I spoke to on the NC or E Board (Granted I have not spoken to 100% of the E Board) has said that Day Trips are a line in the sand (to be fair they haven't even said that having ANY % of day trips are a line in the sand). What I have heard is that they will not let the company ignore both scenarios. Either:
1. The company agrees to a minimum % of day trips
2. The company agrees to a TAFB, overrides, and hotel language
So far the company refuses to do either of those things, which is unacceptable.
For those asking how that would be paid out (breaking the day trip %), one way is to do graduated pay overrides for breaking the percentages. (i.e. 1%-5% violation pays a 10% override to all pilots, 6%-10% violation pays a 20% override, >10% violation pays a 30% override to the entire group). Black and white, easy to defend and payout, etc.
I think the scheduling arbitration is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The union has won multiple arbitrations and the company keeps suing and appealing the decisions. The union just won the hearing saying that the arbitration can move forward and will now be heard for the umpteenth time, and the union will win again. Of course, the company needs another six months to prepare for the arbitration that has been going on for years at this point. They know they will lose and lose big at the end of the process. They are just delaying the inevitable and hoping they can gain some way to leverage the new CBA into making all the arbitrations go away.
1. The company agrees to a minimum % of day trips
2. The company agrees to a TAFB, overrides, and hotel language
So far the company refuses to do either of those things, which is unacceptable.
For those asking how that would be paid out (breaking the day trip %), one way is to do graduated pay overrides for breaking the percentages. (i.e. 1%-5% violation pays a 10% override to all pilots, 6%-10% violation pays a 20% override, >10% violation pays a 30% override to the entire group). Black and white, easy to defend and payout, etc.
I think the scheduling arbitration is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The union has won multiple arbitrations and the company keeps suing and appealing the decisions. The union just won the hearing saying that the arbitration can move forward and will now be heard for the umpteenth time, and the union will win again. Of course, the company needs another six months to prepare for the arbitration that has been going on for years at this point. They know they will lose and lose big at the end of the process. They are just delaying the inevitable and hoping they can gain some way to leverage the new CBA into making all the arbitrations go away.
With 26 bases, TDY’s, monthly block-hours that fluctuate more than the richter scale readings in Fukushima - you don’t see the opportunity for more fudging, obfuscation, “that’s not what it says”, etc…..?
01-26-2023, 07:10 AM
#1268
Voice of Reason
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Uncomfortable
Posts: 481
When I said that, I was thinking more along the lines of total system departures. The drawback to using total system departures would be that some bases "could" be day trip bases and some could be multi-day trip bases and it would all work out in the percentages. Once again, you have to cap the longer 4-5 day trips.
In either case, a percentage of pairings is hard to argue against. 50% is 50%. Coupled with pay overrides for breaking the percentages, the remedy is already built-in. So yes, apples to oranges. The scheduling arbitration is much more in-depth and complicated. Also, keep in mind, the union has won those arbitrations already, the company just keeps filing lawsuits and appealing ridiculous items to keep from having to pay it or comply with the way the scheduling section is actually written.
I am really hoping that "Involuntary" TDYs go away, therefore TDYs would not be an issue in the next CBA. No other company does TDYs the way we do (except spirit, which will be fixed with the JB merger). If you volunteer for a TDY, great, that is your choice, but the company shouldn't have the ability to involuntarily TDY. Getting forced out of your base is the issue, not the VBD/commuter guys who actually like the ability to TDY to pad the check and avoid crash pad/hotel costs.
01-26-2023, 08:51 AM
#1269
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 69
Company would never go for a restriction of their operation, and a 50% requirement is worthless anyway. You could get that schedule at many other airlines for way more money.
solve it with money, and make it expensive. Many ways to go about it but off the cuff:
1. 100% abg override for any overnight trips.
2. 5 hour min day pay
this would allow a reserve pilot to still make abg for an assigned overnight. 1 overnight (2 days) would result in 10 hours abg.
someone picking it up in open time already abg would essentially make 20 hours pch
someone assigned it to their line would make 10 abg, even if it’s a composite with 1 trip on their schedule.
id say that would make overnights desirable enough for it not to be a problem with the pilots, and expensive enough to dissuade the company from going that direction.
solve it with money, and make it expensive. Many ways to go about it but off the cuff:
1. 100% abg override for any overnight trips.
2. 5 hour min day pay
this would allow a reserve pilot to still make abg for an assigned overnight. 1 overnight (2 days) would result in 10 hours abg.
someone picking it up in open time already abg would essentially make 20 hours pch
someone assigned it to their line would make 10 abg, even if it’s a composite with 1 trip on their schedule.
id say that would make overnights desirable enough for it not to be a problem with the pilots, and expensive enough to dissuade the company from going that direction.
01-26-2023, 09:28 AM
#1270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 948
I really doubt the company would agree to any but the most insignificant contract provisions that would in any way hamstring their ability to run the operation as they see fit.
The conditions that gave rise to the business model - cheap, used, paid for airplanes; cheap, willing, happy-to-just-have-a-job employees - are changing. I think the operation will change; maybe not drastically but enough that the company is going to want to keep their options open.
The conditions that gave rise to the business model - cheap, used, paid for airplanes; cheap, willing, happy-to-just-have-a-job employees - are changing. I think the operation will change; maybe not drastically but enough that the company is going to want to keep their options open.
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