Contract negotiations
01-09-2023, 06:25 AM
#1142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: A-320
Posts: 680
If the offer is substandard why would you send it to vote? Luckily the union protects the group from this type of thinking.
Long time fence sitter here and I’ve now lost all faith in the company coming to the table with industry standard pay and work rules. Impossible to know where ill be and what I’ll be doing 10 years from now. Half my new hire class is already gone, the rest of us are putting our apps in now. Already have two legacy interviews lined up next month.
Best of luck to the rest of you.
Long time fence sitter here and I’ve now lost all faith in the company coming to the table with industry standard pay and work rules. Impossible to know where ill be and what I’ll be doing 10 years from now. Half my new hire class is already gone, the rest of us are putting our apps in now. Already have two legacy interviews lined up next month.
Best of luck to the rest of you.
Good luck to you, maybe I'll see you in class.
01-09-2023, 06:36 AM
#1143
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
The offer they sent out was a slap in the face. Even if the pay and contributions were actually industry leading, I’m sick of jiras and grievances. I’d never vote for anything that doesn’t provide ironclad protection for the contract, otherwise what are we but a slightly better paid mess?
It’s pretty sad to say, but one of things I’m most looking forward to at a legacy is not having to file constant jiras and grievances.
It’s pretty sad to say, but one of things I’m most looking forward to at a legacy is not having to file constant jiras and grievances.
Last edited by seatstaken; 01-09-2023 at 06:55 AM.
01-09-2023, 06:39 AM
#1144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,965
The company is not feeling any pain therefore there is no reason to change anything. New hires come and go like a revolving door and that's good enough.
Once we get to a 30 day cooling off period prior to a strike in 2 years or attrition picks up to where airplanes need to start being parked or the new 737 can't be staffed or the training department is shrunk to a point where people can't be trained, or pilots stop picking up overtime, then maybe we can start negotiations properly.
Once we get to a 30 day cooling off period prior to a strike in 2 years or attrition picks up to where airplanes need to start being parked or the new 737 can't be staffed or the training department is shrunk to a point where people can't be trained, or pilots stop picking up overtime, then maybe we can start negotiations properly.
01-09-2023, 06:41 AM
#1145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 927
Just had a 12-year CA leave for Delta….at what other airline does that happen? What does that tell you? He’ll potentially be a Delta CA making 300k while the “let us vote now” Allegiant lifers are still trying to figure out how to update their logbooks. Who’s the smart one in this scenario?
01-09-2023, 06:43 AM
#1146
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Posts: 69
If the offer is substandard why would you send it to vote? Luckily the union protects the group from this type of thinking.
Long time fence sitter here and I’ve now lost all faith in the company coming to the table with industry standard pay and work rules. Impossible to know where ill be and what I’ll be doing 10 years from now. Half my new hire class is already gone, the rest of us are putting our apps in now. Already have two legacy interviews lined up next month.
Best of luck to the rest of you.
Long time fence sitter here and I’ve now lost all faith in the company coming to the table with industry standard pay and work rules. Impossible to know where ill be and what I’ll be doing 10 years from now. Half my new hire class is already gone, the rest of us are putting our apps in now. Already have two legacy interviews lined up next month.
Best of luck to the rest of you.
01-09-2023, 06:54 AM
#1147
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
Just had a 12-year CA leave for Delta….at what other airline does that happen? What does that tell you? He’ll potentially be a Delta CA making 300k while the “let us vote now” Allegiant lifers are still trying to figure out how to update their logbooks. Who’s the smart one in this scenario?
Maury fed-exing those packets to the wives was a sign of pure defiance. Who does that? He has no respect for the pilots, the union, or the process. Anyone who still trusts them and stays is sick with Stockholm syndrome and will deserve it when they go down with this sinking ship.
01-09-2023, 08:57 AM
#1148
Voice of Reason
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Uncomfortable
Posts: 481
For those that are saying that the pay rates the company proposed are "close" to sufficient: Ok, I guess some would consider them close, depending on what you consider sufficient. Some of the pay levels are not "planets" apart FROM ALASKA, but let's take a look at the numbers and how they really compare...
Of the 24 pay levels (12 CA and 12 FO), only three of the proposed rates are actually higher than Alaska. Year 1 FO ($5), Year 11 CA ($1.23), and Year 12 CA ($7.20). The other 21 are all behind Alaska, which is SOLIDLY behind JB's proposed rates (keeping in mind that JB's 12 CA rate goes from $320 DOS to $340 in 18 months AND they still have to negotiate a JCBA with Spirit, which will probably result in another bump). DAL crushes those numbers and so will UAL and AA once DAL sets the bar.
The other 10 CA rates trail Alaska by $57, $48, $42, $35, $27, $22, $16, $11, $6, and $2 for an average of $21 below (counting the two levels that are higher) which is an average of 8% BEHIND the proposed Alaska rates. FO Rates trail by an average of $11 and 6% (counting the first year being higher). The first five years of CA pay trails Alaska by 10%-21%. Not to mention, that they only provided DOS rates. Why do you think they didn't provide the rest of the years? Betting it's not because it beats Alaska for the following years.
So in reality, the company offered us rates that are 8% and 6% BELOW Alaska which is already below JB and will be SIGNIFICANTLY below everyone by this time next year. The only thing the company did was throw enough of a bone to the Senior guys that they hoped it would cause a rift in the pilot group (looks like it's working too, which is depression level sad that these guys have no clue what the industry looks like right now).
Wake up (all those people asking why we aren't voting on this), these rates are nowhere near enough. That's why we aren't voting on this. In a year we'll be 20% behind again. And that's not even counting the lack of LTD, Min Day, TDY Protection, Day Trip Protection, Reserve Improvements, and on and on and on...
When the company is beating JB rates at every level AND they add the QOL items listed above, then we'll have something to discuss. Until then, no thanks.
P.S. We'd also be perennially behind in retirement considering DAL will be going to 17% and 18% in this contract (which AA and UAL will match) and Alaska has a 17% me too if three others get 17%. How do so many of us value ourselves so little? I have no problem with people wanting to stay here (I am one of them), but no one should want to stay here enough to be treated like a second-class citizen (and that's being generous).
Of the 24 pay levels (12 CA and 12 FO), only three of the proposed rates are actually higher than Alaska. Year 1 FO ($5), Year 11 CA ($1.23), and Year 12 CA ($7.20). The other 21 are all behind Alaska, which is SOLIDLY behind JB's proposed rates (keeping in mind that JB's 12 CA rate goes from $320 DOS to $340 in 18 months AND they still have to negotiate a JCBA with Spirit, which will probably result in another bump). DAL crushes those numbers and so will UAL and AA once DAL sets the bar.
The other 10 CA rates trail Alaska by $57, $48, $42, $35, $27, $22, $16, $11, $6, and $2 for an average of $21 below (counting the two levels that are higher) which is an average of 8% BEHIND the proposed Alaska rates. FO Rates trail by an average of $11 and 6% (counting the first year being higher). The first five years of CA pay trails Alaska by 10%-21%. Not to mention, that they only provided DOS rates. Why do you think they didn't provide the rest of the years? Betting it's not because it beats Alaska for the following years.
So in reality, the company offered us rates that are 8% and 6% BELOW Alaska which is already below JB and will be SIGNIFICANTLY below everyone by this time next year. The only thing the company did was throw enough of a bone to the Senior guys that they hoped it would cause a rift in the pilot group (looks like it's working too, which is depression level sad that these guys have no clue what the industry looks like right now).
Wake up (all those people asking why we aren't voting on this), these rates are nowhere near enough. That's why we aren't voting on this. In a year we'll be 20% behind again. And that's not even counting the lack of LTD, Min Day, TDY Protection, Day Trip Protection, Reserve Improvements, and on and on and on...
When the company is beating JB rates at every level AND they add the QOL items listed above, then we'll have something to discuss. Until then, no thanks.
P.S. We'd also be perennially behind in retirement considering DAL will be going to 17% and 18% in this contract (which AA and UAL will match) and Alaska has a 17% me too if three others get 17%. How do so many of us value ourselves so little? I have no problem with people wanting to stay here (I am one of them), but no one should want to stay here enough to be treated like a second-class citizen (and that's being generous).
01-09-2023, 09:33 AM
#1149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Captain for Skyhawks
Posts: 482
For those that are saying that the pay rates the company proposed are "close" to sufficient: Ok, I guess some would consider them close, depending on what you consider sufficient. Some of the pay levels are not "planets" apart FROM ALASKA, but let's take a look at the numbers and how they really compare...
Of the 24 pay levels (12 CA and 12 FO), only three of the proposed rates are actually higher than Alaska. Year 1 FO ($5), Year 11 CA ($1.23), and Year 12 CA ($7.20). The other 21 are all behind Alaska, which is SOLIDLY behind JB's proposed rates (keeping in mind that JB's 12 CA rate goes from $320 DOS to $340 in 18 months AND they still have to negotiate a JCBA with Spirit, which will probably result in another bump). DAL crushes those numbers and so will UAL and AA once DAL sets the bar.
The other 10 CA rates trail Alaska by $57, $48, $42, $35, $27, $22, $16, $11, $6, and $2 for an average of $21 below (counting the two levels that are higher) which is an average of 8% BEHIND the proposed Alaska rates. FO Rates trail by an average of $11 and 6% (counting the first year being higher). The first five years of CA pay trails Alaska by 10%-21%. Not to mention, that they only provided DOS rates. Why do you think they didn't provide the rest of the years? Betting it's not because it beats Alaska for the following years.
So in reality, the company offered us rates that are 8% and 6% BELOW Alaska which is already below JB and will be SIGNIFICANTLY below everyone by this time next year. The only thing the company did was throw enough of a bone to the Senior guys that they hoped it would cause a rift in the pilot group (looks like it's working too, which is depression level sad that these guys have no clue what the industry looks like right now).
Wake up (all those people asking why we aren't voting on this), these rates are nowhere near enough. That's why we aren't voting on this. In a year we'll be 20% behind again. And that's not even counting the lack of LTD, Min Day, TDY Protection, Day Trip Protection, Reserve Improvements, and on and on and on...
When the company is beating JB rates at every level AND they add the QOL items listed above, then we'll have something to discuss. Until then, no thanks.
P.S. We'd also be perennially behind in retirement considering DAL will be going to 17% and 18% in this contract (which AA and UAL will match) and Alaska has a 17% me too if three others get 17%. How do so many of us value ourselves so little? I have no problem with people wanting to stay here (I am one of them), but no one should want to stay here enough to be treated like a second-class citizen (and that's being generous).
Of the 24 pay levels (12 CA and 12 FO), only three of the proposed rates are actually higher than Alaska. Year 1 FO ($5), Year 11 CA ($1.23), and Year 12 CA ($7.20). The other 21 are all behind Alaska, which is SOLIDLY behind JB's proposed rates (keeping in mind that JB's 12 CA rate goes from $320 DOS to $340 in 18 months AND they still have to negotiate a JCBA with Spirit, which will probably result in another bump). DAL crushes those numbers and so will UAL and AA once DAL sets the bar.
The other 10 CA rates trail Alaska by $57, $48, $42, $35, $27, $22, $16, $11, $6, and $2 for an average of $21 below (counting the two levels that are higher) which is an average of 8% BEHIND the proposed Alaska rates. FO Rates trail by an average of $11 and 6% (counting the first year being higher). The first five years of CA pay trails Alaska by 10%-21%. Not to mention, that they only provided DOS rates. Why do you think they didn't provide the rest of the years? Betting it's not because it beats Alaska for the following years.
So in reality, the company offered us rates that are 8% and 6% BELOW Alaska which is already below JB and will be SIGNIFICANTLY below everyone by this time next year. The only thing the company did was throw enough of a bone to the Senior guys that they hoped it would cause a rift in the pilot group (looks like it's working too, which is depression level sad that these guys have no clue what the industry looks like right now).
Wake up (all those people asking why we aren't voting on this), these rates are nowhere near enough. That's why we aren't voting on this. In a year we'll be 20% behind again. And that's not even counting the lack of LTD, Min Day, TDY Protection, Day Trip Protection, Reserve Improvements, and on and on and on...
When the company is beating JB rates at every level AND they add the QOL items listed above, then we'll have something to discuss. Until then, no thanks.
P.S. We'd also be perennially behind in retirement considering DAL will be going to 17% and 18% in this contract (which AA and UAL will match) and Alaska has a 17% me too if three others get 17%. How do so many of us value ourselves so little? I have no problem with people wanting to stay here (I am one of them), but no one should want to stay here enough to be treated like a second-class citizen (and that's being generous).
I wonder if those senior pilots look at themselves in the mirror and say “I want to be paid less, have fewer benefits, and worse work rules while working harder then my peers”
01-09-2023, 09:57 AM
#1150
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,987
Because "home every night" is worth it. Until they aren't. But it won't happen to them, just the junior pukes.
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