coolyokeluke

The military mindset would be an improvement - salaries are the same from one branch to another.

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MiLtoMajor123

so you think the Government should run the Airlines? And we would be paid much much lower wages. But it would be "equal" and "fair" across the board.

As for everyone else....apparently I have upper management/soul crusher written across my forehead.

I guess my question is ....who's koolaide are you guys drinking? I understand we need to fight for wages. I think we ALL can agree that Alaska needs to grow to survive. Again...nobody answered my original question about how much is too much......or my question about growth potential. I guess what is the end goal? Get as much money as possible no matter how that impacts the company? I kind of get the feeling that is what people are saying.....which is extremely short sighted IMHO. Unless you really don't care if you merge with Delta or not. Of course I'm new to Unions in general. I really don't like this Us vs Them mentality.

palooza

Outsider for sure here, but man you should take some time to sit back and watch for a while. Coming from another mil guy transitioned over I've been watching this through the contract cycles at all these airlines and learning. Bottom line is you are out of line with the way you're thinking of this. It's a struggle to go from managing an office in the military to this side without wanting to say what you're saying. But what I'm slowly realizing is it takes years to learn about all this. Because you and I just left within the last few years for the 121 world believe me I hear ya. But it's the wrong angle, brother. Listen more to pilots around you. Management is smaller numbers, easier for them to plot course and communicate. You and I are hired skilled labor. Don't cheapen our livelihood with thinking a company can't grow without you holding back. Nuff said, I'll go back to watching, just couldn't even sit back and see this go down anymore.

Mink

As was seen shortly after 9/11, the companies will roll out draconian "we need this or we will go out of business" contracts in a heartbeat when the economic environment will allow it, and they'll cram them down your throat.

Why are you trying to manage the company? They have "people" for that. Pilots finally have some leverage. Take advantage of it now, because the shoe, at some point, will be on the other foot.

MiLtoMajor123

I"m sorry I just couldn't take all of the negativity....I'm trying to have Pride and Possitivity in a Job that I just got. I'm also trying to see ALL angles before I'm just swept up into the politics of it all.

yeargab

You guys are halarious! Here's a quick answer to all your problems. Vote today for the contract you want:
www.pilotcredentials.com

Andy

Military retiree flying for a different airline here. I respectfully suggest you stop posting and just read for a while. In a couple of years, you'll cringe when reading your current posts. ... trust me on this.

Packrat

Not to pile on, but you're in a completely different world now. Pilot and F/A wages/benefits are one of three costs and airline faces: Fuel, Infrastructure and Labor.

Of the three, Labor is the easiest for Management to control. They usually do it one of three ways:

1. Carrot: "If you give us the pay rates we need, we can grow the airline. We'll have 2000 pilots by the year 2000."

2. Stick: "If you don't give us the contract we need, we'll grow Jet America (substitute Virgin America) and shrink Alaska."

3. Filibuster: "We can drag out contract negotiations for YEARS paying current rates and default to Moderation and Arbitration. We've WON Arbitration before, so lets roll the dice. Besides, we'll offer a 'signing' bonus that is miniscule compared to the full back pay we would have owed them."

Angle Lake is proficient at all these scenarios. Remember this...any raise in pay for pilots would be a tiny increase in cost per ticket. So to think that getting less than what other 737 operators are paying is arrogant thinking in a way. If you think the pilot payroll is going to sink Alaska Airlines, you're deluding yourself.

Having come from the military as well, I appreciate you're not yet in synch with the Union. You're still in the "accomplish the mission" mode. As others have pointed out, you're not management anymore. You're just blue collar labor, a butt in a seat. Angle Lake could care less about your experience or what you accomplish at the airline. You're easily replaced by hundreds, if not thousands of applicants that will gladly start at Year 1 F/O wages.

Don't sell yourself or your pilot brothers and sisters short. They can't run the airline without ALL of you. Get what you deserve.

coolyokeluke

No I meant that the military mindset would be an improvement for you - you're openly advocating for being paid less than the competition. Between active, IRR, and reserve I'm at 21 years duty so far. Having the government run the airlines is the furthest thing from my list of desires.

You are raising the ire of your coworkers, not because there aren't elements of truth in what you say, but because there is an us versus them mentality to this. News flash: we don't like it either, but it's a fact of life. There's an old saying in labor relations: a company usually get the union it deserves. Let that sink in for a bit. The management already has a lot of tools and resources at its disposal: a highly paid labor relations legal team (usually Ford and Harrison) who advise them on tactics to break labor or at least delay the payout. A NLRB (national labor relations board) who is complicit with management - when's the last time they released an airline to strike? And the time before that? That's our heavy lever arm - which nobody wants - but it's like having a nuclear weapon; it's a deterrent and without it managers are free to delay delay delay. So the hard feelings here arise from you advocating for our opponent in negotiations, it's akin to treason when we need to be unified.

Here's another piece you might be missing: before negotiations start ALPA (or any union worth its salt) has a team of finance people examine the company to determine what the company can afford, what's a reasonable ask. Pilots are not asking for something unsustainable. Pilots do not want something unsustainable - thanks to the seniority system we either succeed or go down with the ship. Please let the union negotiators do their job and step down from your education mission to the pilots; we already know the things you say, plus due to decades of experience in this industry we know a lot more.

I'm glad that you are happy at Alaska and hopefully we'll all enjoy long profitable careers.

palooza

No worries, and I think most on here can see that is how you're feeling. I think most of us who thrived in the military can attest, observing for the first 6-12 months is key to understanding what really are the issues and what needs to be accomplished in a military unit. However, I would say that 6-12 months is longer in the airline world (multiple years). The problem is we don't have meetings to discuss these issues as line pilots. ALPA is paid to do the work you're trying to. Hopefully the NC, MEC's, and LEC's you guys have are working together well and pushing for what is right. At the early stages of your long career it's time to listen to the wisdom of those who have been through many of these negotiations before including broken promises, plans, contracts, relations with the company, etc, etc.. Nothing that's happening now hasn't happened before, process wise. But what we all know is the market for our labor is rising and our airlines are doing just fine to the tune of billions in revenue each quarter. Unprecedented GOOD times. Just hate to watch us step all over each other not believing our eyes and living in fear. Go get industry standard or better so we can all rise through the tide!

Edit: Download a copy of "Flying the Line". Two parter, long, but provides great perspective and history to all of this. According to some this used to be mandatory reading from the Union.