Senority List Integration from 2007 on......
11-13-2017, 09:30 PM
#311
Guest
Posts: n/a
2 things:1) The rj to major poster is just a kid in his mom’s basement, dont give him the time of day. 2) Caveman, It is not you specifically that I speak of. Rather it is the attitude of too high a percentage of our pilots. 18 years ago Alaska was a decent job. The best kept secret in the airline business is that we have been coasting downhill ever since. In every nook and cranny of this place....Enough said
11-13-2017, 10:09 PM
#312
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Upright & Breathing
Posts: 319
Why the hell do you guys engage with trolls? Good grief! If it is blasphemous or mean spirited, don't reply. You are just playing into the hands of the idiot trolls. Come on! Use your brain!
11-14-2017, 05:48 AM
#313
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,041
This is how I look at it. It's a better to be medium than small, and often better to be big than medium so I consider the merger an opportunity for all involved... an opportunity is not a guarantee, you have to make it happen.
11-15-2017, 03:55 AM
#314
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 128
It's obvious few have done their homework concerning seniority integration. Let me break it down factually.
In an ALPA-ALPA SLI There are only a few pertinent governing documents: Section 45 of ALPA's Admin Maual, a few clarifying ALPA national newsletters, and the two or three ISL awards since the latest iteration of ALPA Merger policy that resulted from large multi-airline conferences in 2009.
Above all, any ISL must meet the Fair and Equitable (no windfall) standard. F&E has been interpreted to mean the maintenance of pay opportunities and QOL. Since pay in this case is moot with the JCBA, it hinges on QOL. QOL is synonymous with the schedules a pilot is accustomed to, which is informed by 'bidding power,' which is a function of relative seniority. Therefore, under ALPA, relative seniority trumps DOH.
ALPA's governing SLI rules have been whittled down over the years to three. These are the MAJOR equities that Merger committees or arbitrators must use to craft an ISL. However, they are not weighted, they just have to be considered. They are:
1) Category / Class. In AS-VX this has already been negotiated. There are only two: CA/narrow body and FO/narrow body. (A third--constructive notice pilots--will be integrated by straight DOH and attached below the FO/narrow body list as per the TPA.) So all CAs on the snapshot date go in one bucket, and all FOs in the other.
2) Career Expectations. This has been interpreted in awards to mean access to more lucrative flying, which means wide bodies. In this case, career expectations are equal. An argument made concerning upgrade time/potential could be made, but I'm not sure which side would prevail, and there is no recent precedent using such as a Major Equity.
3) Longevity. This is the crux of the AS-VX SLI, which is really simplistic compared to others. Since relative seniority trumps (see above), the Relative Seniority
OH ratio will be skewed in its favor. How much will be determined by the MINOR equities (Work rules, company stability, growth, retirements, etc.). In UAL-CAL a 65:35 ratio was used. At AA (under McCaskill-Bond) 85:15 was used. Delta-NWA ISL was awarded based on a 'pull and plug' method that resulted in different ratios for the many different category/classes. NO ONE knows where this ratio will fall for AS-VX. There are 8 merger negotiators and 3 arbitrators who will have input that shapes the result, but they don't even know until the end.
VX will have to defend against AS' claims of superior minor equities (including a lopsided DOH).
AS has the problem of several hundred 'career FOs.' These senior pilot's information will be used to create slots that dominate the top of the FO/narrow body list. However, a pilot's name doesn't fill the slot his data creates. In an SLI, no pilot may jump another from his original list. At the end of the process, the created slots are filled in with names from top to bottom of the original lists in a process called 'stove piping.' (Management pilots, LOAs, medicals, and others who didn't 'bring a job to the table' are pulled out at the beginning and not used to create a slot. But they are reinserted below whomever they follow on the original list once all of the slots are filled.) The 'career FOs' will be reinserted in order in slots intermixed with the VX captains, which means those top FO slots their data created will be filled by the corresponding number of junior AS captains. This essentially staples the junior most AS captains (as of the snapshot date) to the captain list and nullifies any potential gains on the FO side. (VX, which had an 'up or out' policy, has almost no bypass FOs by comparison.)
In the end, VX guys will be slotted next to AS guys with much earlier DOHs. Because of hiring practices, the same rules / mechanisms will likely result in many jr. AS FOs being slotted ahead of VX FOs hired before them. But this is the actual process.
In an ALPA-ALPA SLI There are only a few pertinent governing documents: Section 45 of ALPA's Admin Maual, a few clarifying ALPA national newsletters, and the two or three ISL awards since the latest iteration of ALPA Merger policy that resulted from large multi-airline conferences in 2009.
Above all, any ISL must meet the Fair and Equitable (no windfall) standard. F&E has been interpreted to mean the maintenance of pay opportunities and QOL. Since pay in this case is moot with the JCBA, it hinges on QOL. QOL is synonymous with the schedules a pilot is accustomed to, which is informed by 'bidding power,' which is a function of relative seniority. Therefore, under ALPA, relative seniority trumps DOH.
ALPA's governing SLI rules have been whittled down over the years to three. These are the MAJOR equities that Merger committees or arbitrators must use to craft an ISL. However, they are not weighted, they just have to be considered. They are:
1) Category / Class. In AS-VX this has already been negotiated. There are only two: CA/narrow body and FO/narrow body. (A third--constructive notice pilots--will be integrated by straight DOH and attached below the FO/narrow body list as per the TPA.) So all CAs on the snapshot date go in one bucket, and all FOs in the other.
2) Career Expectations. This has been interpreted in awards to mean access to more lucrative flying, which means wide bodies. In this case, career expectations are equal. An argument made concerning upgrade time/potential could be made, but I'm not sure which side would prevail, and there is no recent precedent using such as a Major Equity.
3) Longevity. This is the crux of the AS-VX SLI, which is really simplistic compared to others. Since relative seniority trumps (see above), the Relative Seniority
OH ratio will be skewed in its favor. How much will be determined by the MINOR equities (Work rules, company stability, growth, retirements, etc.). In UAL-CAL a 65:35 ratio was used. At AA (under McCaskill-Bond) 85:15 was used. Delta-NWA ISL was awarded based on a 'pull and plug' method that resulted in different ratios for the many different category/classes. NO ONE knows where this ratio will fall for AS-VX. There are 8 merger negotiators and 3 arbitrators who will have input that shapes the result, but they don't even know until the end.VX will have to defend against AS' claims of superior minor equities (including a lopsided DOH).
AS has the problem of several hundred 'career FOs.' These senior pilot's information will be used to create slots that dominate the top of the FO/narrow body list. However, a pilot's name doesn't fill the slot his data creates. In an SLI, no pilot may jump another from his original list. At the end of the process, the created slots are filled in with names from top to bottom of the original lists in a process called 'stove piping.' (Management pilots, LOAs, medicals, and others who didn't 'bring a job to the table' are pulled out at the beginning and not used to create a slot. But they are reinserted below whomever they follow on the original list once all of the slots are filled.) The 'career FOs' will be reinserted in order in slots intermixed with the VX captains, which means those top FO slots their data created will be filled by the corresponding number of junior AS captains. This essentially staples the junior most AS captains (as of the snapshot date) to the captain list and nullifies any potential gains on the FO side. (VX, which had an 'up or out' policy, has almost no bypass FOs by comparison.)
In the end, VX guys will be slotted next to AS guys with much earlier DOHs. Because of hiring practices, the same rules / mechanisms will likely result in many jr. AS FOs being slotted ahead of VX FOs hired before them. But this is the actual process.
11-15-2017, 04:41 PM
#319
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Right Window
Posts: 138
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