Senority List Integration from 2007 on......
05-14-2016, 03:36 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: 737 tiller master
Posts: 288
First off, welcome to all of my VX brothers and sisters! For the next couple of years, it's going to be a rough but exciting ride to say the least.
None of us are going to solve the SLI issue on a forum but it is a good place to vent and share ideas. More importantly, none of us really have a say on how it's going to go down. The best thing that we can do is let our reps know what each of us think and even then, it's only going to go so far.
It's going to be a tug of war, no doubt. Each side is going to try and get the best deal possible. I just hope that each side also realizes that going to arbitration will be bad joo joo. We all need to step back and not bite off more than we can chew. Everyone needs to know their limitations and not abuse the windfall, if you happen to be on that side of the fence. Pilots at Alaska really have very little to gain compared to VX pilots. People can say all they want about "what if jetBlue won the bid" etc. but did you ever think that Alaska management would standby idly while jetBlue tried to dominate the west coast? Alaska Airlines may be small but they had the money, as we saw, to buy an arsenal of their own even if this acquisition didn't work out. They may lack in the "vision/outlook" department but they are very good at reacting to a bad situation.
If you are less than 6 years at AS (especially the ex-furloughed folks), the outlook isn't very bright in my opinion. I expect the junior folks on both sides to jump ship to the big 3 and/or FedEx, if given the opportunity. Interesting times indeed.
None of us are going to solve the SLI issue on a forum but it is a good place to vent and share ideas. More importantly, none of us really have a say on how it's going to go down. The best thing that we can do is let our reps know what each of us think and even then, it's only going to go so far.
It's going to be a tug of war, no doubt. Each side is going to try and get the best deal possible. I just hope that each side also realizes that going to arbitration will be bad joo joo. We all need to step back and not bite off more than we can chew. Everyone needs to know their limitations and not abuse the windfall, if you happen to be on that side of the fence. Pilots at Alaska really have very little to gain compared to VX pilots. People can say all they want about "what if jetBlue won the bid" etc. but did you ever think that Alaska management would standby idly while jetBlue tried to dominate the west coast? Alaska Airlines may be small but they had the money, as we saw, to buy an arsenal of their own even if this acquisition didn't work out. They may lack in the "vision/outlook" department but they are very good at reacting to a bad situation.
If you are less than 6 years at AS (especially the ex-furloughed folks), the outlook isn't very bright in my opinion. I expect the junior folks on both sides to jump ship to the big 3 and/or FedEx, if given the opportunity. Interesting times indeed.
Last edited by Arctichicken; 05-14-2016 at 03:52 PM.
05-14-2016, 03:48 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 384
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.
Last edited by Mea25000; 05-14-2016 at 04:20 PM.
05-14-2016, 04:01 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: 737 tiller master
Posts: 288
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had.
Career expectations? What's that?
05-14-2016, 04:57 PM
#134
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 93
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.
05-14-2016, 05:36 PM
#136
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 70
Just throwing it out there...All this talk of career expectations and our lack of wide body aircraft. Sure, today, but we could certainly use them. We fly 23 full jets to and from Anchorage every day in the summer. We could easily fill a 767 or 787 to and from the islands. I will not be surprised to see wide body aircraft here before I retire. So yeah, I expect to fly them in my career.
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.
perhaps. just keep in mind that in literally every single recent binding arbitration award the pilot group that asked for the moon and therefore most unreasonable, was screwed the most in the sli award. buyer beware.
05-14-2016, 05:54 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Right Window
Posts: 138
thats not how career expectations works in the alpa merger policy. its based on what you either have on property or have on order by date of merger annoucement. alaska did not and does not have any on property or on order and neither does virgin. this portion of the merger policy is pretty cut n dry because it is negligible with both being the same without widebodies.
jezus people need to read what career expectations are as per the alpa merger policy. it is not any of those things you just said. airline with best asset to debt ratio. lol! seriously dude this isnt what arbitrators look at when it comes to the career expectation tenet. the airtran/southwest situation wasn't the same thing. it could have gone to arbitration but southwest management interfered and the airtran pilots were forced to accept a crappy proposal or be forced to run separate and then bleed dry as the 717s were shipped to delta. that was only allowed because the merger was an alpa merger with a swapa group merger. there really was no governing process. for alaska and virgin since both are alpa, the alpa merger policy applies and the process is spelled out quite clearly. i get it. youre scared because for many of you this is probably the first merger unless you were senior enough to see jet america. just breathe and relax. for those who have been through this rodeo before, there isnt much you can do at this stage and all you are doing is driving your own blood pressure up.
thank you, at least one guy gets it
perhaps. just keep in mind that in literally every single recent binding arbitration award the pilot group that asked for the moon and therefore most unreasonable, was screwed the most in the sli award. buyer beware.
jezus people need to read what career expectations are as per the alpa merger policy. it is not any of those things you just said. airline with best asset to debt ratio. lol! seriously dude this isnt what arbitrators look at when it comes to the career expectation tenet. the airtran/southwest situation wasn't the same thing. it could have gone to arbitration but southwest management interfered and the airtran pilots were forced to accept a crappy proposal or be forced to run separate and then bleed dry as the 717s were shipped to delta. that was only allowed because the merger was an alpa merger with a swapa group merger. there really was no governing process. for alaska and virgin since both are alpa, the alpa merger policy applies and the process is spelled out quite clearly. i get it. youre scared because for many of you this is probably the first merger unless you were senior enough to see jet america. just breathe and relax. for those who have been through this rodeo before, there isnt much you can do at this stage and all you are doing is driving your own blood pressure up.
thank you, at least one guy gets it
perhaps. just keep in mind that in literally every single recent binding arbitration award the pilot group that asked for the moon and therefore most unreasonable, was screwed the most in the sli award. buyer beware.
05-14-2016, 06:15 PM
#138
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 70
Gantamoose, why have you not responded to my request to post Virgins hiring #'s year by year? I'm not getting the team player vibe from you at all... No matter how much you say you are interested in a unified airline I see that you are only interested in using my numbers without reciprocating... #norespect
05-14-2016, 06:46 PM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: 787 Capt.
Posts: 644
The LCAL solution in the arbitration was to go one for one from the top until they ran out of LCAL guys. Then the bottom 2500 would have been LUAL. That was their version of what rational and reasonable was. The Arbs completely disregarded that position.
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