Alaska nearing deal to acquire Virgin America
04-07-2016, 10:19 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
Prior to the UAL/CAL SLI we had 10/06 hires at CAL making Captain, and that came to a halt after SLI. UAL pilots took by far most of the Captain upgrades (on the 737 which they didn't have) for the next 3 years. It's just now (3 years later) that those same pilots who were able to upgrade can finally do it again.
Especially if AS management doesn't take the airplanes, you're going to have a SW/AT type deal where you got 100% of the purchased airline's pilots, but only 75% of their planes. In this case you may not end up with any of their planes.
Especially if AS management doesn't take the airplanes, you're going to have a SW/AT type deal where you got 100% of the purchased airline's pilots, but only 75% of their planes. In this case you may not end up with any of their planes.
You get routes , planes are rented
United had a market value around 8 billion and Cal had a market value 4 Billion.....
04-07-2016, 10:28 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
You are right about "no career expectations" since they are both all narrow body airplanes, but taking the existing #1 VX Captain and putting him with pilots with 9 years seniority isn't going to happen. He may not be #2 overall, but he's not going to go from .01% seniority to 40% seniority.
These two pilot groups are going to share in the benefits of the merger. DOH is not going to happen. UAL didn't even propose that with us which would have stapled about 1,700 CAL 2005-2008 hire pilots on the bottom because they recognized it would not be adopted. Even with that longevity have weighted in, CAL pilots are in equal positions with UAL pilots hired 8 years ahead of us. That's WITH longevity. Status and Category is going to be the driver, I'm afraid.
I predict relative seniority +/- 5% as was in the UAL CAL and NWA DAL mergers.
Disclaimer: I have friends at both airlines.
These two pilot groups are going to share in the benefits of the merger. DOH is not going to happen. UAL didn't even propose that with us which would have stapled about 1,700 CAL 2005-2008 hire pilots on the bottom because they recognized it would not be adopted. Even with that longevity have weighted in, CAL pilots are in equal positions with UAL pilots hired 8 years ahead of us. That's WITH longevity. Status and Category is going to be the driver, I'm afraid.
I predict relative seniority +/- 5% as was in the UAL CAL and NWA DAL mergers.
Disclaimer: I have friends at both airlines.
1750 pilots at Alaska
620 pilots at Virgin
Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain
For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company
For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.
Best of Luck anyway
PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution
04-07-2016, 11:11 AM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: Captain
Posts: 327
1750 pilots at Alaska
620 pilots at Virgin
Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain
For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company
For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.
Best of Luck anyway
PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution
620 pilots at Virgin
Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain
For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company
For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.
Best of Luck anyway
PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution
The 2/1 works except each year AS captains will retire and VX captains won't. After 5-10 years the top 100-200 pilots would all be VX. If career expectations are honored a pilot shouldn't go from retiring in the top 20 to the top 300.
04-07-2016, 11:17 AM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 197
I'm not trying to troll. Just pointing out that QX employees get **** on by the air group. Reasoning, because they are a regional. Many at QX have been trying to get in with Alaska and passing on LCC's like Virgin. Places where a college degree is not required. We are told we are lesser daily, now others are thumbing their nose at 30 year Alaska Air group employees and justifying our 3rd tier status because that is the way it is, which is not an answer. By many of the metrics stated above, you are not much different then a skywest employee. Transcons, etops, RPM, but you still see yourselves as superior, because it makes you feel justified. This enables the whipsaw of employees.
04-07-2016, 11:18 AM
#145
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 70
1750 pilots at Alaska
620 pilots at Virgin
Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain
For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company
For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.
Best of Luck anyway
PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution
620 pilots at Virgin
Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain
For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company
For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.
Best of Luck anyway
PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution
04-07-2016, 11:49 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 667
So i'm new to the airline world and don't quite understand all about M&A's, but, it seems to me that an acquisition should be treated different than a merger. So, if mergers create better opportunities for both companies, then it makes sense that seniority lists should be equitably integrated. However, if one company acquires the other, why wouldn't those pilots just get stapled to the bottom? If nobody acquired VX and they just went under, then everyone is out of a job. If the company was a solid career gameplan, they wouldn't be in the position of closing the doors or seeking a buyout. Thus, why would a VX hire who couldn't get on with Alaska be able to jump them in seniority? I get it if its a merger, but isn't this a buyout? I'd be ****ed if I was at a solid company like Alaska and someone from another company we bought so they didn't go under jumped ahead of me.
04-07-2016, 12:00 PM
#147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: CA
Posts: 1,231
So i'm new to the airline world and don't quite understand all about M&A's, but, it seems to me that an acquisition should be treated different than a merger. So, if mergers create better opportunities for both companies, then it makes sense that seniority lists should be equitably integrated. However, if one company acquires the other, why wouldn't those pilots just get stapled to the bottom? If nobody acquired VX and they just went under, then everyone is out of a job. If the company was a solid career gameplan, they wouldn't be in the position of closing the doors or seeking a buyout. Thus, why would a VX hire who couldn't get on with Alaska be able to jump them in seniority? I get it if its a merger, but isn't this a buyout? I'd be ****ed if I was at a solid company like Alaska and someone from another company we bought so they didn't go under jumped ahead of me.
USAir wasn't stapled after being rescued by an albeit smaller America West.
04-07-2016, 12:42 PM
#148
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 70
So i'm new to the airline world and don't quite understand all about M&A's, but, it seems to me that an acquisition should be treated different than a merger. So, if mergers create better opportunities for both companies, then it makes sense that seniority lists should be equitably integrated. However, if one company acquires the other, why wouldn't those pilots just get stapled to the bottom? If nobody acquired VX and they just went under, then everyone is out of a job. If the company was a solid career gameplan, they wouldn't be in the position of closing the doors or seeking a buyout. Thus, why would a VX hire who couldn't get on with Alaska be able to jump them in seniority? I get it if its a merger, but isn't this a buyout? I'd be ****ed if I was at a solid company like Alaska and someone from another company we bought so they didn't go under jumped ahead of me.
04-07-2016, 12:48 PM
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SFO Guppy CA
Posts: 1,112
I'm not trying to troll. Just pointing out that QX employees get **** on by the air group. Reasoning, because they are a regional. Many at QX have been trying to get in with Alaska and passing on LCC's like Virgin. Places where a college degree is not required. We are told we are lesser daily, now others are thumbing their nose at 30 year Alaska Air group employees and justifying our 3rd tier status because that is the way it is, which is not an answer. By many of the metrics stated above, you are not much different then a skywest employee. Transcons, etops, RPM, but you still see yourselves as superior, because it makes you feel justified. This enables the whipsaw of employees.
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