AS/HA SLI Discussion
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 194
Widebody planes require more staffing because you have more pilots in the cockpit depending on the length of the flight. Also HA should have more pilots because it has more fleets, and needs more pilots to cover reserves from multiple pools of reserve pilots instead of just one pool because of a single equipment type being flown.
Currently we have ~22% more FO’s on the 330 to account for augmented flying. There is also a training bubble to staff the additional freighters arriving before year end, and additional 787’s arriving first quarter of next year.
#22
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 88
Aren’t we returning two 330p leases end at the end of this year?
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 729
The only staffing scenario you may not be accounting for is the RO postions on long haul flights. That usually produces a heavy list on the FO side. Not sure if it would be enough for 18 pilots per, but it does add I'd say 10% more on the widebodies FO list (ballpark). Also, the Amazon contract has 3 plans that don't appear on our list, but does increase our staffing. I believe that operation is overstaffed due to delays with Amazon receiving a/c.
Like politics today, many don't care that someone is right, only that their fragile feelings were hurt over a keyboard. Cattle is pretty spot on about his thoughts and concerns. We are getting a lifeline because our managements only plan was to sit and wait for Japan to evolve in 2027.
Like politics today, many don't care that someone is right, only that their fragile feelings were hurt over a keyboard. Cattle is pretty spot on about his thoughts and concerns. We are getting a lifeline because our managements only plan was to sit and wait for Japan to evolve in 2027.
Yeah all the staffing for augmented crew is understandable for 2 of the fleets. Probably not for the 717 or 321. My concern lies with the lack of deliveries. The 787 line is producing 6 aircraft per month. Last year it was 2.5. Assuming this rate remains constant HA/AS will have 10 787s by 2030. The next two scheduled deliveries are in 2025 and 2026. Maybe.
321 Neos have engine issues that I don't know much about. The MAX line is not producing anything at the moment. 330 is the wildcard. I have no idea what the delivery situation looks like for that aircraft.
My concern is: if AS is getting rid of 12, 737-900s and the 717s need to be replaced. What aircraft will replace them? What will happen to two overstaffed pilot groups when furlough protection runs out? I know its 2 years from today for AS at minimum hopefully later whenever the merger is finalized. Once that happens the clock is ticking for airframe replacement. Not even growth.
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 356
NWA/DAL has 4 "status and categories"...widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs
UAL/CAL had 6 "status and categories". widebody captains, midbody captains (757/767), narrow body captains, widebody FOs, midbody FOs and narrow body FOs (plus both furloughed CAL/UAL pilots)
Both of these are publicly sercheable. Arbitrators are going to give HA pilots a "bump" in seniority because of their widebody planes.
If AS was merging with Horizon, would you just be ok with the 737 being treated the same as a E-175? I'm guessing not.
Neither would an arbitrator.
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 729
Its literally codified into ALPA Merger Policy and used in the last 2 ALPA mergers with widebody planes.
NWA/DAL has 4 "status and categories"...widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs
UAL/CAL had 6 "status and categories". widebody captains, midbody captains (757/767), narrow body captains, widebody FOs, midbody FOs and narrow body FOs (plus both furloughed CAL/UAL pilots)
Both of these are publicly sercheable. Arbitrators are going to give HA pilots a "bump" in seniority because of their widebody planes.
If AS was merging with Horizon, would you just be ok with the 737 being treated the same as a E-175? I'm guessing not.
Neither would an arbitrator.
NWA/DAL has 4 "status and categories"...widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs
UAL/CAL had 6 "status and categories". widebody captains, midbody captains (757/767), narrow body captains, widebody FOs, midbody FOs and narrow body FOs (plus both furloughed CAL/UAL pilots)
Both of these are publicly sercheable. Arbitrators are going to give HA pilots a "bump" in seniority because of their widebody planes.
If AS was merging with Horizon, would you just be ok with the 737 being treated the same as a E-175? I'm guessing not.
Neither would an arbitrator.
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2019
Posts: 130
Its literally codified into ALPA Merger Policy and used in the last 2 ALPA mergers with widebody planes.
NWA/DAL has 4 "status and categories"...widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs
UAL/CAL had 6 "status and categories". widebody captains, midbody captains (757/767), narrow body captains, widebody FOs, midbody FOs and narrow body FOs (plus both furloughed CAL/UAL pilots)
Both of these are publicly sercheable. Arbitrators are going to give HA pilots a "bump" in seniority because of their widebody planes.
If AS was merging with Horizon, would you just be ok with the 737 being treated the same as a E-175? I'm guessing not.
Neither would an arbitrator.
NWA/DAL has 4 "status and categories"...widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs
UAL/CAL had 6 "status and categories". widebody captains, midbody captains (757/767), narrow body captains, widebody FOs, midbody FOs and narrow body FOs (plus both furloughed CAL/UAL pilots)
Both of these are publicly sercheable. Arbitrators are going to give HA pilots a "bump" in seniority because of their widebody planes.
If AS was merging with Horizon, would you just be ok with the 737 being treated the same as a E-175? I'm guessing not.
Neither would an arbitrator.
"HA would have been bankrupt if it wasn't for the acquisition!" isn't part of the equation. HA having widebodies, however, is part of the merger language.
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2023
Posts: 383
Good Luck, In Unity...
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 162
Will status and category be considered? Of course. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think an arbitrator isn't going to consider the big picture. Alaska is a much stronger and secure company. That will carry weight. There really isn't any huge benefit to the Alaska pilot group resulting from this merger. Hawaiian pilots are really the main beneficiaries. I wouldn't hold my breathe for much of a bump in seniority or long lasting fences.
#29
Yeah all the staffing for augmented crew is understandable for 2 of the fleets. Probably not for the 717 or 321. My concern lies with the lack of deliveries. The 787 line is producing 6 aircraft per month. Last year it was 2.5. Assuming this rate remains constant HA/AS will have 10 787s by 2030. The next two scheduled deliveries are in 2025 and 2026. Maybe.
321 Neos have engine issues that I don't know much about. The MAX line is not producing anything at the moment. 330 is the wildcard. I have no idea what the delivery situation looks like for that aircraft.
My concern is: if AS is getting rid of 12, 737-900s and the 717s need to be replaced. What aircraft will replace them? What will happen to two overstaffed pilot groups when furlough protection runs out? I know its 2 years from today for AS at minimum hopefully later whenever the merger is finalized. Once that happens the clock is ticking for airframe replacement. Not even growth.
321 Neos have engine issues that I don't know much about. The MAX line is not producing anything at the moment. 330 is the wildcard. I have no idea what the delivery situation looks like for that aircraft.
My concern is: if AS is getting rid of 12, 737-900s and the 717s need to be replaced. What aircraft will replace them? What will happen to two overstaffed pilot groups when furlough protection runs out? I know its 2 years from today for AS at minimum hopefully later whenever the merger is finalized. Once that happens the clock is ticking for airframe replacement. Not even growth.
There you go.
Not to mention if they keep the 737MAX-7 for interisland then the timing should work out well for replacing the 717.
So A321 now, 787s faster than Hawaiian has scheduled, and 737MAX-7 in 5 years.
SOC by 2026 anyhow.
#30
Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integratedseniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:- Career expectations.- Longevity. - Status and category.
Will status and category be considered? Of course. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think an arbitrator isn't going to consider the big picture. Alaska is a much stronger and secure company. That will carry weight. There really isn't any huge benefit to the Alaska pilot group resulting from this merger. Hawaiian pilots are really the main beneficiaries. I wouldn't hold my breathe for much of a bump in seniority or long lasting fences.
Will status and category be considered? Of course. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think an arbitrator isn't going to consider the big picture. Alaska is a much stronger and secure company. That will carry weight. There really isn't any huge benefit to the Alaska pilot group resulting from this merger. Hawaiian pilots are really the main beneficiaries. I wouldn't hold my breathe for much of a bump in seniority or long lasting fences.
This.
However in 10 years, too big to fail/EAS wet dream could come true. HAL would be part of that construct.
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