AS/HA SLI Discussion
09-26-2024, 12:31 PM
#231
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Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,680
I don't think you got what I was saying. I pointed out that last time the top several hundred spots went to the company with more longevity, without even having WB's in the mix. This isn't going down like last time...
AS/HA are similar longevity demographics, but category seems if anything to get weighted more than longevity. So at least a couple hundred HA on top, maybe more.
* Caveat: Assuming arbitration, which is usually a safe assumption. On the off chance it's negotiated, they could agree on anything they like.
AS/HA are similar longevity demographics, but category seems if anything to get weighted more than longevity. So at least a couple hundred HA on top, maybe more.
* Caveat: Assuming arbitration, which is usually a safe assumption. On the off chance it's negotiated, they could agree on anything they like.
09-26-2024, 12:56 PM
#232
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Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 356
Also it effectively "pulls up" other HA pilots on the list. The #1 Status and category at AS is currently NBCA. That pilot is #1 at AS. Once you stovepipe all the HA WB Captains (lets assume 200), then the #1 HA NBCA is #201 at HA, which is the SAME S&C as the #1 AS pilot. This doesn't include longevity so it won't be that dramatic.
09-26-2024, 12:58 PM
#233
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Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 356
There will be no base fences. Its not in policy and was denied by the UAL/CAL Arbitrators even though CAL didn't have a west coast base prior to the merger.
09-26-2024, 02:05 PM
#234
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 685
This would be a substantial departure from merger policy. You can't punish the HA pilot group because AS management decided to move all the WB planes to SEA. Also 3-6 year fence when AS has no widebody planes on proparty AND no orders, would be shockingly low. Its going to be at least 10 years minimum, or until WB CA starts going unfilled on bids.
There will be no base fences. Its not in policy and was denied by the UAL/CAL Arbitrators even though CAL didn't have a west coast base prior to the merger.
There will be no base fences. Its not in policy and was denied by the UAL/CAL Arbitrators even though CAL didn't have a west coast base prior to the merger.
Not saying it's an easy situation to figure out, but it shouldn't seem to lean overwhelming in favor of one group over another.
Big picture, we all have career expectations at our respective airlines, but realistically, many times those expectations do not come to fruition due to things like furlough, loss of medical, loss of license, termination, etc. I submit that a merger falls into those bag of things that could curtail your career expectations. In a merger, yes, as far as possible, every effort should be made to preserve a pilot's career expectation, but again, it should not come at the expense of another pilot's.
Last edited by All Bizniz; 09-26-2024 at 02:45 PM.
09-26-2024, 03:09 PM
#236
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,297
Its not "bonus seniority". Its because they have a higher status and category.
Also it effectively "pulls up" other HA pilots on the list. The #1 Status and category at AS is currently NBCA. That pilot is #1 at AS. Once you stovepipe all the HA WB Captains (lets assume 200), then the #1 HA NBCA is #201 at HA, which is the SAME S&C as the #1 AS pilot. This doesn't include longevity so it won't be that dramatic.
Also it effectively "pulls up" other HA pilots on the list. The #1 Status and category at AS is currently NBCA. That pilot is #1 at AS. Once you stovepipe all the HA WB Captains (lets assume 200), then the #1 HA NBCA is #201 at HA, which is the SAME S&C as the #1 AS pilot. This doesn't include longevity so it won't be that dramatic.
You can take that bonus seniority and enjoy what you already had, plus (hopefully for all of us) better financial stability.
Worst case, you can take your bonus category seniority and bid in on top of AS NB pilots. AS pilot aren't going to be happy with that prospect.
The problem for many AS pilots is that while you get extra credit for category per ALPA, there's no automatic allowance for payscales and financial stability even though that's a clear contrast.
I'm not trying to win an argument, as I've said there's not much we can do about it (arbitration based on ALPA rules). If all goes well, it won't matter, everybody will have growth and stability where they want to be.
09-26-2024, 03:35 PM
#237
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Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: outside
Posts: 721
OTZeagle1, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
09-26-2024, 03:48 PM
#238
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Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: outside
Posts: 721
Actually... OTZ does have a point which I had not considered.
The company *really* wants to expedite the full SOC integration to realize enhanced synergies blah, blah, blah. That can't happen until after SLI, so...
It's not impossible that the company intends to offer a generous JCBA, but condition it on a mutually agreed SLI. Technically the SLI does not absolutely *have* to go to arbitration, that's just how it always plays out in the real world. The MEC's could negotiate and agree to an SLI, and maybe a juicy JCBA would be the carrot to get it over the finish line.
I also hadn't considered a blended rate, but that can and has been done (UPS had that at one point?). Company would prefer it, especially with so many fleets, since it eliminates the need to cross bid for $, instead folks would only switch planes for domicile or schedule.
The company *really* wants to expedite the full SOC integration to realize enhanced synergies blah, blah, blah. That can't happen until after SLI, so...
It's not impossible that the company intends to offer a generous JCBA, but condition it on a mutually agreed SLI. Technically the SLI does not absolutely *have* to go to arbitration, that's just how it always plays out in the real world. The MEC's could negotiate and agree to an SLI, and maybe a juicy JCBA would be the carrot to get it over the finish line.
I also hadn't considered a blended rate, but that can and has been done (UPS had that at one point?). Company would prefer it, especially with so many fleets, since it eliminates the need to cross bid for $, instead folks would only switch planes for domicile or schedule.
In those circumstances are those are all widebodies. A case where we had a blended rate would be a sell out, a complete embarrasment. The status quo or standard will be a scale thats exactly the same as our peers, DL, UA, AA, nothing less regarding airframe size.
09-26-2024, 04:21 PM
#239
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 79
Its not "bonus seniority". Its because they have a higher status and category.
Also it effectively "pulls up" other HA pilots on the list. The #1 Status and category at AS is currently NBCA. That pilot is #1 at AS. Once you stovepipe all the HA WB Captains (lets assume 200), then the #1 HA NBCA is #201 at HA, which is the SAME S&C as the #1 AS pilot. This doesn't include longevity so it won't be that dramatic.
Also it effectively "pulls up" other HA pilots on the list. The #1 Status and category at AS is currently NBCA. That pilot is #1 at AS. Once you stovepipe all the HA WB Captains (lets assume 200), then the #1 HA NBCA is #201 at HA, which is the SAME S&C as the #1 AS pilot. This doesn't include longevity so it won't be that dramatic.
AS pilots, are you starting to get it yet?
09-26-2024, 04:22 PM
#240
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 79
This would be a substantial departure from merger policy. You can't punish the HA pilot group because AS management decided to move all the WB planes to SEA. Also 3-6 year fence when AS has no widebody planes on proparty AND no orders, would be shockingly low. Its going to be at least 10 years minimum, or until WB CA starts going unfilled on bids.
There will be no base fences. Its not in policy and was denied by the UAL/CAL Arbitrators even though CAL didn't have a west coast base prior to the merger.
There will be no base fences. Its not in policy and was denied by the UAL/CAL Arbitrators even though CAL didn't have a west coast base prior to the merger.
how about now? all you have to do is look at past precedent as this person is doing. its staring you in the face. you're almost there.
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