Originally Posted by GoodJet

I'd bet every single pilot on Alyeska that lives in fear of "the economy" can't even define recession without looking it up on Google.

Originally Posted by GoodJet

Sorry but I don't put a lot of weight into a rumor that mgmt is in France buying 330s. I don't see growth by relying on BA.

Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo

There is only one way to make aggrieved pilots feel better after a contentious SLI. Money.

Originally Posted by GoCats67

Guys are talking about what seat somebody is currently in as something that affects all of this. The only affect that has is that you can bet 100% that there will not be an entitilement to bump somebody that ends up junior to you out of a seat they are currently flying in. Other than that what seat you are actually in is completely irrelevant.

What is relevent is how many positions each airline has in each fleet/seat. This is affectionately called the stove pipe. Basically what it means is that they are going to treat your seniority position as far as category and status goes as where you would be if everybody bid to the highest position their seniority can hold. Put another way, if HA has 60 787 Captains (assuming 787 is the highest paying plane), then current seniority list numbers 1-60 will be treated as 787 Captains 1-60 for seniority integration purposes, even if only 30 of those 60 are actually on the 787. That same process will apply to each fleet seat (category) for the whole seniority list and then the same process will be done on the Alaska side (obviously much easier to do for Alaska)

That will give you the two seniority lists for Category and Status purposes.
You will also have the two seniority lists as they are right now for longevity purposes.

The Career expectations portion of the SLI debate usually comes down to how much relative weight each of the above lists are given and what if any fences are going to be put in place.

During the UAL/CAL SLI the arbitrator ulitmately decided on a 65% weight for the Status and Category portion and a 35% weight for the Longevity portion.

What that means is they took the UAL Status and Category list and mashed it together with the CAL Status and Category list by proportions. Widebody Captains were smashed together with their counterparts at the other airline, so the number 50 of 100 Widebody Captains at CAL was right next to the number 100 of 200 Widebody Captains at UAL (numbers completely made up for illustration purposes only). Next they did the same thing with middlebody Captains, Narrowbody Captains, Widebody FOs, ..... The end result was a combined Status and Category seniority list for all UAL and CAL pilots. That list was used for 65% weighting of your final position calculation.

They then took the seniority lists based on DOH and mashed them together to create one combined list based on years of service. That list was used for 35% weighting of your final position calculation.

So you had a number in list A multiplied by .65 and a number in list B multipled by .35. Those two numbers were added together and that become your ranking number for the final list. They then sorted the list by that new ranking number that each pilot had and that became the new final seniority list (ISL)

As far as fences go, we had a 5 year fence around the 787 for original CAL pilots and a 5 year fence around the 747 for original UAL pilots.

I would bet that your merged list process will follow this logic, so on the one list the total number of widebody captains at HA will be the very top of the status and category portion. I would also bet that the proportions on the longevity vs status and category will not be 35/65, but that same process will be used probobly with a much higher weighting of longevity.

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot

Absolutely correct. I think what people are not understanding is that every merger under ALPA merger policy gave a higher category to larger planes (i.e. bump in seniority) just like a 737 would be a "higher category" than an E-175 in a merger. 737 pilots would get a "bump" as well.

Even with HA's WB planes, no body would likely move more than a couple % in their existing seniority regarless of what percentages weight Longevity and S&C are weighted. The only issue is the implementation of the fence. It will certainly be base don the plane, regardless of where it is based. Zero SLIs gave a "base fence". Only equipment fences. 5 years is standard ir both airlines have WB planes. 10+ years is more likely in this case. Possibly career fences. If I were at HA I would be STRONGLY trying to convince the arbitrators for a career fence.

Also ALPA merger policy has not considered the financial state of an airline in the SLI. That is because ALPA is about pilots and not about how well their companies were managed. Pilots can't control that. Also any conjecture that they would have "gone out of business" is not considered in an SLI because they could have just as easily been bought by another airline.

Prediction ---> Nobody will move more than 5% from their "today" seniority % on the final list and there will be Equipment fences on the 787 and A-330s no less than 5 years from the Date of the Award but more likely 10+.

There have been 0 ALPA mergers in the last 20 years where anything other than Longevity, Status & Category and Career Expectations (i.e. widebody fences) have been used in the Award. ZERO. Just like VX/AS. Longevity and Status and Category were the only considerations, since neither airline had any WB planes.

Originally Posted by IFlyEm

HA doesn't have enough crews to maintain the fleet for the duration of the AS pilot careers. That would mean new hires would be able to jump current pilots.

Originally Posted by IFlyEm

HA doesn't have enough crews to maintain the fleet for the duration of the AS pilot careers. That would mean new hires would be able to jump current pilots.

Originally Posted by DenainaPilot

Except that’s not what you were talking about. Nice try though.

Originally Posted by GoCats67

That is another provision of fences. They will have a duration provision, but also have a well defined list of the pilots that are covered by the fence. So, if a long term fence is enacted it will certainly no longer apply if the junior pilot currently at HA that is covered by the SLI has a chance to bid for 787 and choses not to. At that point any "unfilled" 787 slots would be open to the legacy AS pilots.

The other caveats on the fence in this case will be:
What if more 787s are ordered now or in the future. Then what is the status of the fence?
What if a 787 base is opened in SEA (or other AS base that is not a HA base) to start flying SEA-HND what is the status of the fence?

Those are the issues that have to be addressed during the SLI, and rest assured those are very conentious! In the career expectations discussions, HA will argue that AS pilots never would have flown a 787. AS pilots will argue that HA pilots never would have flown a SEA based flight. Both arguements are prob true, so how do you deal with who flies them in the future? This is a reason you have an Arbitrator and why I don't envy him/her.

Fences will **** off some of the group. Bids during the time that the fence is in place will remind them they are ****ed off! Then the first few bids after the fence comes down will **** off the other side!!

Originally Posted by ridinhigh

I must admit I am impressed with how this was pulled off immediately following a blocked merger.
The management team at least has my respect.