Alaska buying Hawaiian airlines.
03-28-2024, 01:39 PM
#611
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 339
what are we thinking that decision will be 👀
03-28-2024, 07:09 PM
#612
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,691
The fact that the DOJ is even talking with you guys is good news. With our debacle (JB/NK) we tried to contact the DOJ to discuss concessions but they wouldn’t even respond. I think AS/HA is going to happen without any issues.
03-28-2024, 09:01 PM
#613
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,224
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
03-28-2024, 09:13 PM
#614
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 339
do some things
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
03-28-2024, 09:17 PM
#615
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: Precarious
Posts: 388
do some things
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
03-28-2024, 09:24 PM
#616
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,224
Zippered. Fun! Thanks.
03-29-2024, 07:03 AM
#617
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,406
I hate this merger.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
03-29-2024, 07:09 AM
#618
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,406
do some things
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
hold off on
can you offer examples? Not specific to the situation but it sounds like you have some thoughts in a general sense during a regulatory review of this kind.
Also. How might an SLI be affected by two airlines where one continued to hire post merger announcement and the other did not? We are hiring another 10% in the next 12 months.
The companies agreed to provide some specific info and then let the DOJ have a specific amount of time to digest that before consumating the merger. I think the implied deal is that if DOJ doesn't object within that short timeline, they're OK with the merger moving forward.
Yes, post-annnouncement hires are strict DOH, zippered on the off chance that both airlines started a class on the same day. Theory being that you knew what you signed up for when you showed up for class, so you're not entitled to any SLI special treatment either way.
03-29-2024, 08:44 AM
#619
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,224
I hate this merger.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
We had/have a defend mentality.
We had great interisland margins until we didn’t.
We only introduce new flying where we only attempt monopolistic type routes. Like, “Gee I wonder why nobody else is or why everyone else stopped route x.” On that note, we don’t want to fly into fortress hubs of other carriers and step on any one else’s toes. Meanwhile everyone is gunning to fly to Hawaii.
We cling to what worked, like Japan. Flying empty planes hemorrhaging money.
We carry “extra” staff for long haul flying and the training bubbles and inefficiencies of a diverse fleet and route structure. There are advantage to that complexity like negotiating power or like when a fleet is parked due to operational or manufacturing woes, the other picks up the slack.
We are trying really hard to offer a premium leisure product while still offering basic economy to satisfy everyone and somehow “feel” different.
We have a very low attrition rate due to our varied, east flying and high qol.
Sucks we can’t make money and I’m as worried as anybody Hono gets shrunk or Amazon pulls the plug or whipsaws.
BUT, I also don’t want my checks to bounce.
There is a reason, beyond the SWAPA/staple thing, that HAL pilots prefer Alaska over Southwest. We must see something in you that says “hang on, this merger could work with an all 737 type operator.”
You are right, margins will erode. I’d be more nervous than ever with a MAX only growth plan for the next 20 years. Change can be a good thing. Some parts of it anyways.
03-29-2024, 08:47 AM
#620
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 489
I hate this merger.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
1. The Amazon flying is subjecting us to Amazons whims (whipsaw) in line with Mesa and Atlas. Not company I want AS to be associated with nor their payrates or contract protections. If Amazon can whipsaw AS, AS can whipsaw its pilot group to compete with bottom tier contract cargo carriers. HA is staffing for this flying which I believe likely means AS will be overstaffed when they are combined.
2. The only hardware HA has of value to AS is a 787 and order slots. Old A330-200s (to my understanding have range issues? I.E. useless unless you have a pitstop in the middle of the Pacific), old 717s at the end of their life cycle, 321's that AS just spent the last 10 years getting rid of. Seems unlikely that anything is left besides Maxs and 787s in a decade. I.E. 1000 ****ed off pilots except for the select few who can hold 787.
3. HA is a flailing (not failing) business model. Buying another company just to shut down everything that isn't making money. Leads to unhappy people, upended lives, etc.
4. HA appears overstaffed as is. 60ish airplanes. 1100 pilots? I'm not sure what the staffing model is for wide bodies, but this seams fat. We already have zero hiring zero progression at AS this year.
5. Much like the VA folks, I think the HA pilot group is in for a rude awakening when it sees how cutthroat AS is. Surfer holiday culture may be a thing of the past shortly. Base sizes, aircraft, etc. These are all things that are just numbers on a spreadsheet to ST and BM. Ask any prior VA pilot that believed leaderships rhetoric. The chance of those 787s staying in HNL is not high. Results in a bunch ****ed off island boys.
6. Another SLI. It won't go smoothly. It NEVER goes smoothly. Somehow everyone gets F'd in an SLI. Somehow.
7. Another 1000 pilots complaining about sidesticks and tray tables sounds exhausting. I'm sure HA pilots are fine folks just like the VA pilots are a good group of people. But listening to people complain EVERY SINGLE TIME you come to work and sit next to someone in black pants gets so old. I am aware this is not how you wanted your career to go....I always lend a sympathetic ear, I wish I could go back and make it so AS never bought VA. But they did, it was a huge mistake IMO, that CEO is gone, moving on. Sorry the 737 is a POS, its what we're paid to fly, moving on.
I didn't leave AS for one of the bigger airlines for very specific reasons. Notably, was the defensive nature of the business model and the downside protection to my career that is provided. This merger puts AS way outside of its core competency and I worry it will be far more economically sensitive after acquiring a flailing business model with a bunch of inefficient old assets and an overstaffed pilot group. Eliminates the defensive nature of our business model which I covet. So while a bunch of career 737 pilots drool over the potential of sitting in a 787 for 14 hours to Sydney (if the fences ever come down) I'll be praying for the DOJ to step in and spare us from BMs ego project. I like our airline and I like our 10-12 percent profit margins even more. I believe those profit margins are a thing of the past when the entities are combined and the well being of both pilot groups goes down substantially in a post merger environment.
I hope I'm wrong, I often am, merger seems inevitable, and I genuinely hope everyone benefits through the process.
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