Alaska buying Hawaiian airlines.
12-08-2023, 02:39 PM
#191
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 42
ALPA merger policy does not allow a change in relative position post-SLI for each respective pre-SLI list. Put another way, any pilot must still be behind all the pilots ahead of him and ahead of all the pilots behind him on his original seniority list post-SLI.
When you have a list like Alaska currently has where pilots are not in pure DOH order (which by the way is not unusual due to prior mergers), a stovepipe method is used to resolve this after applying respective longevity and relative seniority weightings in developing the new merged list.
For those who care, the methodology used by any arbitrator in the ISL process has not varied much since the UAL/CAL merger. The only variables are the actual weightings discussed above and handling of widebodies which are unique to each merger.
Cheers - Rob.
When you have a list like Alaska currently has where pilots are not in pure DOH order (which by the way is not unusual due to prior mergers), a stovepipe method is used to resolve this after applying respective longevity and relative seniority weightings in developing the new merged list.
For those who care, the methodology used by any arbitrator in the ISL process has not varied much since the UAL/CAL merger. The only variables are the actual weightings discussed above and handling of widebodies which are unique to each merger.
Cheers - Rob.
12-08-2023, 02:42 PM
#192
just past ETP
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Cruise Captain
Posts: 517
Apples to oranges, VX was a new airline, max longevity was about ten years. Couldn't really take the top VX CA's and stick them below junior reserve AS captains. Even so, the top VX people ended well below the top AS people.
I think DOH is a good *starting* point with AS/HA, since both companies are 90 years old. There's been no point in recent history that I'm aware of when any current pilot would have expected any massive career windfall by accepting a job at either shop, aside from WB's.
HA pilots need credit for widebodies, at least the ones on property prior to SLI. If AS buys more after SLI and bases them in SEA, HA shouldn't have any particular priority there. So fences is probably the way to go for WB's... preserves HA career positions without giving them a seniority advantage which would result in permanent priority for any future planes and bases.
AS will argue financial stability and prospects, should probably get some credit there and probably will.
A concern for AS pilots might be if HA got a seniority windfall for WB's, but then a bunch of mainland commuters use that to come in on top in west coast NB bases. Don't know how many of those there are, just know that there are some. Maybe they'd prefer to continue to commute for WB flying, maybe not.
Interestingly, my understanding is that fences normally apply to aircraft, not bases. Not sure what are the options there. But good news for HA pilots, I doubt many AS people want to come to HNL, even for WB's.
I think DOH is a good *starting* point with AS/HA, since both companies are 90 years old. There's been no point in recent history that I'm aware of when any current pilot would have expected any massive career windfall by accepting a job at either shop, aside from WB's.
HA pilots need credit for widebodies, at least the ones on property prior to SLI. If AS buys more after SLI and bases them in SEA, HA shouldn't have any particular priority there. So fences is probably the way to go for WB's... preserves HA career positions without giving them a seniority advantage which would result in permanent priority for any future planes and bases.
AS will argue financial stability and prospects, should probably get some credit there and probably will.
A concern for AS pilots might be if HA got a seniority windfall for WB's, but then a bunch of mainland commuters use that to come in on top in west coast NB bases. Don't know how many of those there are, just know that there are some. Maybe they'd prefer to continue to commute for WB flying, maybe not.
Interestingly, my understanding is that fences normally apply to aircraft, not bases. Not sure what are the options there. But good news for HA pilots, I doubt many AS people want to come to HNL, even for WB's.
The big variable will hinge on how we address "current" wide body flying (any NEW widebody flying added to existing AS bases should be a non-issue) and the career expectations as well as preception that HA was distressed .. (I personally think it would have turned aroud, it's like a cockroach, survived 94 years thru several BK's and other financial crisis)..
12-08-2023, 02:51 PM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,939
Speaking as a HA pilot (but not for all of the HA pilots) .. I think Rick pretty much nailed it here...
The big variable will hinge on how we address "current" wide body flying (any NEW widebody flying added to existing AS bases should be a non-issue) and the career expectations as well as preception that HA was distressed .. (I personally think it would have turned aroud, it's like a cockroach, survived 94 years thru several BK's and other financial crisis)..
The big variable will hinge on how we address "current" wide body flying (any NEW widebody flying added to existing AS bases should be a non-issue) and the career expectations as well as preception that HA was distressed .. (I personally think it would have turned aroud, it's like a cockroach, survived 94 years thru several BK's and other financial crisis)..
Let the arbitrators figure out this mess. I'm sure we'll be assessed $2 million - again. Only to hold hearings, offer initial proposals which will anger both sides, while told to maintain unity (tell Alaska you want unity after proposing 85% relative, or tell Virgin you want 70% longevity), then rebuttals. Only in the end to say sorry we tried our best, but now it is going to the arbitration panel.
12-08-2023, 03:40 PM
#194
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 722
DOH would hurt HAL. They only have about 117 pilots hired 1984-1999 and about 130 pilots hired 2000-2009. So only about 247-ish hired prior to 2010 out of roughly 1100 pilots.
Let the arbitrators figure out this mess. I'm sure we'll be assessed $2 million - again. Only to hold hearings, offer initial proposals which will anger both sides, while told to maintain unity (tell Alaska you want unity after proposing 85% relative, or tell Virgin you want 70% longevity), then rebuttals. Only in the end to say sorry we tried our best, but now it is going to the arbitration panel.
Let the arbitrators figure out this mess. I'm sure we'll be assessed $2 million - again. Only to hold hearings, offer initial proposals which will anger both sides, while told to maintain unity (tell Alaska you want unity after proposing 85% relative, or tell Virgin you want 70% longevity), then rebuttals. Only in the end to say sorry we tried our best, but now it is going to the arbitration panel.
12-08-2023, 03:51 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,939
No, because the first proposal is a shot for the moon. Knowing as the process continues, either side may come "down" towards the middle. It's a moot point. On the webinar today the union literally said it will head to arbitration. Like we already know and accept that's the conclusion. The direct negotiation method is already "decided" won't result in an amicable solution.
12-08-2023, 03:54 PM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,224
CVG has 10 A330s under contract. With more options. How much interest in Alaska for doing that flying? Wonder if CVG will get fenced with Honolulu or the equivalent number of wide body jobs.
12-08-2023, 03:56 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 722
No, because the first proposal is a shot for the moon. Knowing as the process continues, either side may come "down" towards the middle. It's a moot point. On the webinar today the union literally said it will head to arbitration. Like we already know and accept that's the conclusion. The direct negotiation method is already "decided" won't result in an amicable solution.
These are big, grown-up issues that will require the use of lawyers. It will cost money. Just accept that some things take time and resources to figure out. An assessment on your dues that you'll never notice is such a weird thing to focus on.
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