KnockKnock

Since you asked nicely. I skimmed these 44 pages and saw exactly what I meantioned. It's been a tit for tat exchange. Starts right around post #7 where Otz calls everyone stupid... Then continues with 99% of the mud slinging being between Otz and other posters. Myself included. (He really could have his own thread of insults and absolutely deserves everything thrown back at him). However, there are others, where no voters are called "incompetence losers" (post 80). Or even some of your own posts, where you accuse those with legitimate concerns of being condescending to the NC and MEC. Or where you dismissed anyone with a gripe as being a monday morning quarterback. Wasn't long ago you voiced your very own dissatisfaction with AS. No voters concerns are whitewashed as residing in, "Fantasy land" and having their "heads in the sand".

So, yeah, a tit for tat exchange. I haven't even looked at the other 3 or 4 threads on the subject but I'm pretty sure I'll find more of the same. You can go ahead and leave your soap box at home.

av8or

Honest question:

Do you you legitimately not see a fundamental difference between someone making a case for how they read the negotiating environment, their outlook on the possibility of economic decline etc, and how that effects their decision matrix VS ….. someone saying that because they are voting yes, they must be “insert favorite pejorative” ?

One person is making a case for why they are voting yes…. end of story. The other is make
an assertion that whatever their rationale is, they are …. an idiot, chick shizzle, koolaid drinker.

You seriously see those as the same thing? 🤔🤔

As for your search, and citation of OTZ’s rhetoric… again…. That’s ONE dude. Besides…. I’m not defending EITHER side when they start throwing names because they disagree.

Bottom line… there’s 3000+ pilots that voted. And 3000+ reasons why. That’s the process. To group and ascertain the reasons, morality, intelligence of those who voted differently….. group them all together and label it, is wrong…. On both sides. IMO

Carebear

If you're ready to come down from your soap box, you can look at all the threads here, and mostly all of the other forums on APC, of people trying to belittle each other about everything. OTZ is pompous and his flame burns even hotter as you guys keep fanning his flames, but he comes on a rumor website and spreads rumors. He gets so many of you riled up that you have to post that he's on your ignore list. After you're done with OTZ, its 2 or 3 other people who say the TA isn't as bad as you make it out to be and then you start ripping into them, trying to dox them, as you sit behind your anonymous username. You start up with the personal attacks, because they aren't on your side. It starts as debate on a topic, and its always a group of 10 of you who start with the personal jabs to try and cut them down because your arguments don't have a leg to stand on. The strawman arguments that you put out there are enough to burn down the entire west coast.

To be fair, your attacks are normal on every airline subforum, and the type lives in the cockpit as well. Telling your FOs they're mentally challenged and idiots for not going to United or Delta. If they're at UA or DL, they're chads for not going to UPS or FedEx. It gets so tired and old making that your entire personality. The only thing OTZ has been right about is if you hate it, leave. Any airline will scoop you up tomorrow if you put an app out. If you can't because you have "6 years left" or aren't 30 anymore, who cares? Isn't your mental well being more important being miserable for the less than 10 years you have left, even though, "You'll be a captain at the Big 3 in a year and make way more there anyway?" Go sit reserve at United or Southwest because their rules are so much better than Alaska's. I can tell you that the reserves at United and Southwest hate their lives just as much as you do. There's a reason United and Delta have 1 year FOs. Its because the other 5000 FOs UA refuse to upgrade because of the garbage reserve rules, and the pilot group is currently eating the MEC alive.

But hey, if OTZ is right and Alaska merges or there is a big transaction, at least you finally have scope protections that are worth more than Kirkland TP.

All Bizniz

You're not a trained meteorologist either (at least most of us pilots aren't), but you use their knowledge, expertise, and predictions to help you make weather related decisions when you fly, don't you?

So, why wouldn't you use the knowledge, expertise, and opinion of trained economists to inform your decision as to where the economy might be over the short, medium, and long term horizons?

How about business leaders? They're familiar with the national and global business cycle. They've had to steer their corporations through periods of the booms and busts, and they do so by recognizing the signs related to one or the other, and act accordingly.

Instead of utilizing information thats readily available to make informed decisions, you prefer to cover your eyes, and ears, and pretend that the economic indicators are not pointing to the possibility of a recession in the not too distant future?

If one is smart, you can weather any recession. Hell, some investors look forward to them because it provides incredible investment opportunities. Its not something to be feared. You simply have to understand when you'd be at a disadvantage, and take steps to weather that storm, in preparation to harness gains on the other side.

KnockKnock

Are you referring to me directly, or are you using me as a stand in for all no voters? Because much of what you've written here doesn't apply. I didn't dox or put anyone on an ignore list.
I gave examples, when asked, of yes voters perpetuating the exact thing you accuse no voters of doing. I agreed that Ozt is the scorce of 99% of the negative rhetoric and he gets 99% of the negative responses. I gave examples of other, "non" Otz posters, participating in the same stuff. But somewhere in the last week or so, the narrative was changed to say that the no voters were being abusive to yes voters, as if your hands were suddenly washed clean... I'm here to tell you, it went both ways. Just go back and look. It's all there. There have been outright insults, veiled insults and insinuations from both camps. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can simply go read it for yourself.
The difference between me and you is, I'm acknowleding it's a two way street while you're still riding that high horse.

hydrostream

Gotcha. Thanks!

AK22

[QUOTE=av8or;3515087]Honest question:

Do you you legitimately not see a fundamental difference between someone making a case for how they read the negotiating environment, their outlook on the possibility of economic decline etc, and how that effects their decision matrix VS ….. someone saying that because they are voting yes, they must be “insert favorite pejorative” ?

One person is making a case for why they are voting yes…. end of story. The other is make
an assertion that whatever their rationale is, they are …. an idiot, chick shizzle, koolaid drinker.

You seriously see those as the same thing? 🤔🤔


It’s really not that surprising, there’s a large group in our society that now believes anyone with an opposing view is committing “violence” against them.

GoodJet

*I added numbers to your questions to ease answering them

1. I don't like this comparison. These are completely different things. Weather is generally simple and not open to manipulation. However, sure. I often times see weather I don't like and I still go flying. For example: Juneau in February. That generally doesn't seem nice but we still go. I've also noticed how the weather forecast is wrong almost always for the greater Seattle area. A simple cross check with the raw data out there proves that it likely won't be snowing this weekend at Snoqualmie Summit. However, my friends who ski are jumping for joy about it. A simple cross check showed it extremely unlikely to snow at elevation except for possibly Tuesday and in the eastern Cascades at best. I almost always cross check the weather forecast and I'm usually surprised that trained professionals can be so wrong so often.

2. I still don't like this comparison. There are many kinds of trained economists. Guys on T.V. shouting about how the world is ending. Those saying everyone should put their investments in X. I have an accountant and an investment advisor and I basically just do what they say. I kind of think that economists that deal with the public are like the people forecasting weather on the news. Often wrong and they show a dumbed down version of what is out there. Except with economists you can clearly see a stark divide in what political camp they hang out in. Throw in emotion and you get a lot of wrong answers.

3. Again. Pretty bad comparison. A lot of business leaders are con men and shills. A lot of businesses go out of business. A lot of people make massive mistakes and lose a lot of money. Who do you trust?

4. No. I look at the demand for pilots. My educated guess on the overall picture for pilot demand despite what the economy can do and I made a decision based on that information. I didn't speculate on the short term vitality of the economy.

5. OK. That's a very nice statement. Once could easily look at this and say now is the time to demand better rather than cower in fear. Apparently, I was in the vast minority.

LineGrinder400

The most entertaining part of this thread is seeing the legitimate questions from innocent posters occasionally sprinkling in and then swiftly fading away amongst the overpowering fray of the whose right and wrong fight.

All Bizniz

You missed the forest for the trees.

The big picture view is that you don't have to be an expert in a field, to use information from that field. Do good research.

The fundamental concepts and forces of micro, and macro-economics are well established, and this economy MUST respond to those forces sooner or later.

You don't wanna be caught with your pants down when that happens. The vast majority got that point.

One either gets it, or one doesn't.