GoodJet

What he fails to understand is that I’m not going to show up and complain. That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m concerned about is my past experiences living through “times like these”. Being at a shop with low morale is not a good time and it wears on you over time. At least other places are going through good times so there is an alternative. Unlike 9/11, 2008, age 65 etc…

FreqFlyer

I do, but them i’m just called a mgmt plant, a troll, and other derogatory terms by the angry 8…

DenainaPilot

Why don’t we go ahead and beat this dead horse for a few more pages. Definitely haven’t seen all these arguments before.

Jetlikespeed

need that dead horse gif from alyeska

LJCub

I think more than expected will upgrade. Of course QOL and schedules play a part in FO's bypassing but the other major factor here is a lot of them just wanted to stay on the Bus. I know of 1 CA personally but unofficially it's been said the company is even expecting more CA 's to leave just to avoid the 73.

I know of one Bus CA that even lives near SEA and commutes to RSV in LAX.

Now that the Bus is gone, why not just upgrade and keep the CA pay they have been getting used to these last few months, especially with PBS on the horizon for better junior line holder schedules.

That said, while I hate to see fellow pilots get downgraded and displaced, as you say it shouldn't be a big surprise lots of senior Bus pilots are bidding over. Artificial seniority is prevalent at the Big 3 obviously but what did #2300 new CA out of #3300 expect when we went single fleet?


As far as Shy and the argument of why the company would give us anything. "You get what you negotiate" isn't just a generic term. You're in a Union. It's real and the Union DOES have power when speaking with a unified voice. Through I expect if we had 3000+ Shy's voting last fall, we'd still be at the company proposal of $280

ShyGuy

98% participation and 99% yes is not a unique Alaska thing. That’s pretty much everywhere. Even the well-quoted here, Southwest Airlines. How can that be? A place people leaving here for with awesome pay and QOL is still putting out strike numbers resembling AS. That’s unity but at the end of the day, the economic market conditions will dictate the new contract.

I think it’s extremely telling you quote zero source of leverage. No koala, a voice is not leverage. You’re just another seniority number. As long as the pilots show up and the planes move, there is no pressure. The only leverage is walking with your feet, and that is nearly impossible in a seniority system with golden handcuffs. A union has power, but not in the way you’re thinking. “Suggesting to do something” is illegal and judges have struck down union employee actions that were illegal.

The only leverage we have is attrition and attracting new hires. As long as that math is balanced and affordable to AS, you’re not getting Delta+1%. Besides, what world do you envision where Delta pilots accept AS getting +1% more? Whatever you get, they are gonna demand more. And you can’t do a live real time me-too clause in recurrent style because it would get stuck in an infinite loop of increases for both airlines.

rickair7777

I also expect some senior FO's will leave (some already have)... at UAL, they can be a senior bus FO in CA in 1-2 years.


I know of one Bus CA that even lives near SEA and commutes to RSV in LAX.

Some probably will, but I think many of the senior holdouts will wait and see how reserve QOL shakes out over the next year-ish. I don't think a few months of CA pay is going to suck anyone into making a move they weren't already going to make. They're all grownups, and already knew how much they could make as CA's.

If you're junior enough to get displaced, you're junior enough to start over at UA/DL, if you're under 50. I've seen worse things happen at worse times in this industry, so I don't feel too bad for them. Hopefully the dust settles OK for everyone.

Also it will take some time for this to all play out unless they can magically get several hundred pilots through training all in one month. And I think some old guys will just retire. Maybe after they collect their free guppy type.

I tend to agree that all these guys are wasting their breath crying about recruiting and retention. That's the companies problem, they know it, and they have a plan (whether the plan works out remains TBD). Pilot group needs different arguments for negotiation... unless they want to negotiate contractual growth requirements, which would be novel. The company might even have a plan B or C involving stagnation or even some shrinkage if the staff situation gets bad enough. I don't know their tipping point where growth isn't worth it if labor costs get too high. It is true that AS (or any second tier) would have to offer a VERY generous package to compete with the big three right now since retirements and seniority/widebody opportunities are unprecedented... even then they're probably only to keep older folks and a few PNW/AK folks. They may be banking on sheer laziness... if 30% leave in year one that means 70% don't leave. The longer they stay after that the less likely they are to leave. I even know a guy who may well end up at AS because he doesn't like what he's heard about the culture at DL and AA, and UA hasn't called (yes he's been counseled).

GoodJet

I love that the resounding opinion on downgrades is: “if you don’t like it, leave!”

Carebear

What’s the alternative? Staple the airbus guys below the Boeing guys?

ReluctantEskimo

The alternative is to solve why we're reducing flights in LAX (Oneworld), and to protect jobs in the next contract. Lessons learned and all that stuff. I know it's a big ask for this group.