rickair7777

90 years means nothing.

In this context legacy DOES mean something because ALL of the legacies use outsourced FFD. That makes their model different from LCC's.

Out of ALL of the legacies, AS is the ONLY one who flies NB's exclusively. That makes the model different from both legacies and LCCs.

flyprdu

Yes. 90 years means nothing. The first 50 were flying props in the great white north.

You're correct that the contract should model closer to the majors and not the LCCs. Why narrowbodies only would preclude against copying Delta's contract is lost on me.

Just sounds like more excuse making for lower standards.

AK22

Actually it sounds like an argument for industry leading NB rates. How else does Alaska expect to compete for scarce resources (pilots).

All Bizniz

AS Mgmt and Board's primary responsibility is to make money for the company's shareholders. They're doing that now, as they've been doing for a long time, but in this climate of pilot scarcity and attrition, will face significant challenges doing that, going forward.

Right now, they have the choice of either ponying up the cash to give the pilots a great contract, and keep that printing press going, or, stay with the old playbook, and risk killing the golden goose.

If Gordon Gekko is right that "Greed is Good", then something tells me that they'll want to keep that gravy train rolling.

rickair7777

I was actually suggesting that since AS has ONLY narrowbodies, perhaps AS guppy rates should be HIGHER than other legacies, since those pilots always have WB payscales to look forward to down the road. Career value for pilots, pilot retention for the company...

I have never, ever suggested lowering standards, you're the one advocating for slogging it out indefinitely under a VERY subpar contract in the hopes that someday the big boys will set a new bar and save the day. And then start negotiations to ride their coat-tails. And maybe some retro for all those years

But why are you telling us? I have nothing to do with it. Go call your rep and tell them to stop negotiating. I'm sure they'll weigh your preferences along with the other 3000 pilots.

9mikemike

Important not to put any hopes on…”they will have to pay us or they wont be able to be successful”…..After almost 24 years of hearing that mantra and having be 100% meaningless it will take an ugly, bloody fight to get where the group claims to want to go….We have only mustered on the far horizon and shaken our flag and played our pipes and drums…..We have yet to even have a skirmish. Alaska leadership lives and dies on us “making” them pay us..Long march and lots of fighting before we get there

rickair7777

They have a bunch of PRIA requests, I dare say hundreds. I'm not going to say that they're not prepared do a Lucy with the football and drag this out after summer or the holidays, but if that's their plan they will need to be planning on a significantly smaller operation next year. 1/3 of the pilots can easily be gone by this time in 2023, and that will only start a death spiral as more people bail to escape downgrades and Eskimo reserve.

All Bizniz

I'm sure you've seen a lot in the last 24 years, but you really don't think its different now?

Have we ever been this unified, and willing to demonstrate that unity with perhaps the strongest picketing turnout of any airline union, not to mention the 99 percent YES Strike Authorization with a 97 percent eligibility voting?

Couple that with the unprecedented attrition, and soon to be unprecedented pilot shortage, are you really convinced they'll proceed with business as usual?

Yes, I know that it seems like AS always seem to get one over on the pilots, but unless they are the airline equivalent of Houdini, I'm optimistic that they wont be able to escape the confluence of circumstances that'll require them to agree to a competitive contract.

9mikemike

I am sure we have a well trained, unified fighting force…No question…That is a major difference than in the past….We have loaded weapons….The TA, when it comes, will have met the ask of pilots 2 years ago, a year ago even… It is necessary for it to be put out to a vote…Hope fully we dont put any emotion in to it and just evaluate it based on today and tomorrow and not what we knew the world to be 2-3 years ago or even 6 months ago. The negotiating committee is the best we have ever had. A strong no vote will in no way be a measure of their skill, dedication and hard work. Attrition and hiring will not ever move the needle for Alaska Airlines…Their bad behavior will continue unchecked even after a contract is signed…The contract needs lots of clubs to bludgeon them with as they will try to tear down every single provision and gain we make….

ShyGuy

No it doesn't, not everything has to be an emotional decision. It's a factual call. Left vs right, the deciding factor will be the wind. I'd rather turn upwind than downwind to get around the storm. That decision is not based on emotion, but facts known about weather behavior.

Again, this is an emotional response. You've seen Horizon get $215/hr and your emotional response to that is wanting 450/hr. That's not how this works. You're staying. Most people at Horizon are not. The only ones making 215/hr there will be their senior lifers who aren't leaving. No one entering Horizon is going to stick around to see 18th year pay. On that note, there's a reason Envoy checkairman are getting 400/hr with their override. Once they become checkairman, they aren't sticking around and leave for a legacy carrier. Envoy has no one then to check and train their pilots. So to keep them, they have to offer unheard of numbers because the goal is to get those checkairman to stay for X amount of time before they bail. Alaska doesn't need to do any of this. All they need to do is offer just enough to stem attrition lower than what it currently is. What pay rate would that entail? I'll let the experts figure that out.


I take emotion out of it, I've long said this whole ordeal is "just business, nothing personal." What am I worth? I'll let our ALPA experts in that field make that final call. They are trained in these things. Our Economic and Financial Analysis (EFA) team looks at the current economy, projected economy, current market rates, current company financial condition, projected financial condition, etc. They look at a host of factors and are able to guide our NC and come up with a rate for us. I trust them to do their job.

This is FUD. You don't think our NC knows this, and will word it carefully so it is executed properly? I have faith in them (until proven otherwise) that they know what they are doing and know exactly what we want.