Alaska slowing growth...
07-04-2018, 11:17 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 692
I’m aware but according to Slim6890, they are something weighing heavily on his mind and a reason why he’s looking elsewhere. So, as with everything in the contract, I’m telling him that the value placed on us by management can be filed where it belongs. In the trash. We’re gonna get exactly what we demand. If we don’t get what we want, we clearly didn’t want it bad enough....
07-04-2018, 01:51 PM
#132
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 41
I get it...
I’m aware but according to Slim6890, they are something weighing heavily on his mind and a reason why he’s looking elsewhere. So, as with everything in the contract, I’m telling him that the value placed on us by management can be filed where it belongs. In the trash. We’re gonna get exactly what we demand. If we don’t get what we want, we clearly didn’t want it bad enough....
07-04-2018, 02:17 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,906
This doesn’t mean we won’t fight for pay equal to or better than the going 737/320 rates in 2020. Management will try to lower your expectations as an early negotiating tactic. They will pound it into your head that you are 5th place at best. They will try to shape the new hires into, docile, well behaved pilots. It’s up to us how much we get paid because it’s up to us to DEMAND we get paid the going rate. I say you kindly file managements suggestions about what we deserve into the small plastic file cabinet hanging from the back of the center console.
07-04-2018, 03:21 PM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 692
I know you’re better than this. I was responding to a guy who said the company told him they would never pay us top rate. If he had said the company told him they would never give us scope, I would have responded in kind. If he had said the company told him they would never improve section 25, I would have responded in kind. He specifically referred to pay and so I specifically responded to pay. Don’t be dense. You need not question my mentality going forward.
07-05-2018, 07:34 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 670
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
Last edited by All Bizniz; 07-05-2018 at 07:45 AM.
07-05-2018, 09:11 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: This side of the dirt.
Posts: 896
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
07-05-2018, 10:27 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 692
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
07-05-2018, 10:39 AM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 1,214
Hawaiian Airlines' new CEO says he's ready to battle Southwest Airlines whenever the Texas-based budget airline brings its discount airfares.
Peter Ingram, who took the helm at the Hawaiian March 1 after being chief commercial and chief financial officer for 12 years, says the island carrier has already competed effectively for years against three large airlines — Delta, United Airlines and American — on its home turf.
"I'm very confident that we have a cost structure that will allow us to be competitive," Ingram said in an interview in Seattle while he was in town for employee meetings.
—————————————————
Seems like Peter has been spending a lot of time in Seattle. Look for this thing to be announced late September. I think SWA or DAL could try and play spoiler. If not there will be no contract in 2020. Just another two year arbitrated award and another SLI to bicker about.
Peter Ingram, who took the helm at the Hawaiian March 1 after being chief commercial and chief financial officer for 12 years, says the island carrier has already competed effectively for years against three large airlines — Delta, United Airlines and American — on its home turf.
"I'm very confident that we have a cost structure that will allow us to be competitive," Ingram said in an interview in Seattle while he was in town for employee meetings.
—————————————————
Seems like Peter has been spending a lot of time in Seattle. Look for this thing to be announced late September. I think SWA or DAL could try and play spoiler. If not there will be no contract in 2020. Just another two year arbitrated award and another SLI to bicker about.
07-05-2018, 10:58 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Upright & Breathing
Posts: 318
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.
What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.
All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?
The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.
We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.
A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.
Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.
The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:
VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.
So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.
So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.
My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
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