Alaska slowing growth...
07-02-2018, 09:07 PM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,906
Did you know that VX would be voting in ALPA in 2015, when you were hired? Of course not, no more than you knew what bases would open but you still found it an acceptable place to go regardless of, not having a CBA, not having scope, lower than average pay and lower than average retirement. So you apparently took a few concessions for the work rules yet you chastise those who, as you say, have taken concessions for the QOL of living in base.
You can’t say that voting in ALPA means VX would have been better off. There’s no way of knowing how that would have turned out. It’s taken JB 3 years to negotiate their first contract. Frontier is still getting the sh!t kicked out of them and they too are ALPA.
When I got hired, AS top pay was within $3 of DAL top 737 pay at the life of the contract. 401K was within 2.5% of DAL. I did know that scope was extremely limited but I also knew the contract was amenable in April 2018. Having spoken to many AS pilots at the time, I thought scope was something we would absolutely be fighting for and was one of the first things many of us in new hire talked about improving.
So yeah, I found it acceptable to come to AS so I could drive to work and improve my QOL. So in order to validate any of your soap box rhetoric, please write me a list of ways VX raised the bar for the industry. That list is gonna be shorter then your Uniform ties. Believe me Shy, my message IS to hang there and fight together for a better contract. I just find it absurd that pilots coming form anytime less than THE #1 position in the Industry, should refer to others as sell outs. Especially when they themselves could be perceived as having “sold out”.
07-02-2018, 09:34 PM
#122
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07-02-2018, 09:51 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,906
True. But keep in mind base rep votes; closing JFK took out crucial votes. In the end the MEC will be from the combined pilot group and the bases of ANC, SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX (overlap base).
07-03-2018, 07:28 AM
#124
Guest
Posts: n/a
In September, VDR pilots will outnumber ASA in LAX by 14%(82) with 18% of the pilots on the Boeing being too new to vote.
07-03-2018, 09:22 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: This side of the dirt.
Posts: 896
Knock and Shy
So, if I may, y’all are both right in a lot of ways. But the term “sell out” as opposed to “settle” is where it gets contentious.
A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.
Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.
Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.
The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)
But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.
My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.
Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.
That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.
Just my opinion. Flame away.
A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.
Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.
Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.
The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)
But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.
My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.
Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.
That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.
Just my opinion. Flame away.
07-03-2018, 10:26 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Left, right & center
Posts: 821
07-04-2018, 07:45 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 692
I have been at Ak for less than a year and I am trying to make a jump. Management already told us we won't ever be the highest paid and I thank them for that. (At least they were honest) AK is not a bad place to be but it won't ever be the highest paid. All the other major airlines have slowed down their hiring for summer so I don't expect to be call till late fall.
07-04-2018, 08:44 AM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: a cushy one with a forward facing window
Posts: 114
So, if I may, y’all are both right in a lot of ways. But the term “sell out” as opposed to “settle” is where it gets contentious.
A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.
Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.
Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.
The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)
But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.
My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.
Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.
That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.
Just my opinion. Flame away.
A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.
Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.
Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.
The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)
But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.
My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.
Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.
That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.
Just my opinion. Flame away.
07-04-2018, 10:27 AM
#130
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 60
This doesn’t mean we won’t fight for pay equal to or better than the going 737/320 rates in 2020. Management will try to lower your expectations as an early negotiating tactic. They will pound it into your head that you are 5th place at best. They will try to shape the new hires into, docile, well behaved pilots. It’s up to us how much we get paid because it’s up to us to DEMAND we get paid the going rate. I say you kindly file managements suggestions about what we deserve into the small plastic file cabinet hanging from the back of the center console.
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