PBS at Alaska?
02-21-2018, 07:40 PM
#101
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Have gun, will travel
Posts: 92
02-21-2018, 08:27 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Know yourself and know where you come from? Back at you pal. You assume VX is all of our only stop. Has it ever occurred to you that we just didn’t beam out of nowhere? Guys with very long pedigrees on the VX side too, flying 73s and larger. I got checked out in a 73 over 20 years ago myself, and I’ve line bid before too. I get it. .. as for the FAs, prove me wrong.
In regards to Eskimo FA’s PBS, do you know how they ended up with PBS, pal? They had a year trial period. The company and AFA agreed on a opt-out clause if things didn’t work out after the trial period but due to a technicality they were forced to keep it, allegedly. There’s a little taste of this ruthless management group for y’all! How about the numerous bid award appeals by FAs every month with no real recourse or accountability on part of crew planning?
I don’t know how much interaction you’ve had with Alaskan FAs but a good majority of mid to junior FAs whom I’ve worked with do not like PBS and I’ve been here much longer than VX has been around. As it has been relayed here numerous times, PBS in itself isn’t a no-go but it’s PBS + our current work rules, optimizer settings, and penny pinching pilot hating management.
The PBS vs Line bidding is pointless without similar trip construction. VX has a high % of efficient trips. This is mostly due to 2 reasons, more transcons and relaxed work rules allowing the maxing out of 117 (ie long duty days, hotel standby for delays etc)
You'd be surprised how little PBS protections Delta United and others really have within their respective LOAs for PBS. They still get decent schedules. Why? Pairing construction and duty rigs/min day rigs.
Fight for minimum credit per DAY(not average and not per duty period) or a better trip rig and PBS or line bidding will be a moot point.
You'd be surprised how little PBS protections Delta United and others really have within their respective LOAs for PBS. They still get decent schedules. Why? Pairing construction and duty rigs/min day rigs.
Fight for minimum credit per DAY(not average and not per duty period) or a better trip rig and PBS or line bidding will be a moot point.
02-21-2018, 10:04 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 466
02-21-2018, 10:11 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 466
Sure buddy. Enjoy the raise. Just look at JetBlue negotiations and you’d see your future at Virgin America. You’d be the top catfish in the pond.
02-21-2018, 11:49 PM
#106
Guest
Posts: n/a
The BS about VX being the cause of our pathetic contract in 09 and again 13 is the stuff of urban legends.....We can thank ourselves for those contracts.....Hard sell by the VSA crowd, hard sell by the MEC, hard sell both times from negotiating committees badly beaten and suffering from acute Stockholm Syndrome. But most of all, our own refusal to ever stand strong. We have been the sad joke for every other pilot group that has stood strong...We are known as the french pilots... willing to surrender at a moments notice.....That said, to the vocal minority of former Virgin pilots selling PBS...Shut Up...It is DOA.
It may be revived in 2020, but only when the foundation and framework are in place....To the guy going on about the PBS program used by the stews....Most dont like it/hate it...And their pairings are completely different and how they get paid is completely different.
It may be revived in 2020, but only when the foundation and framework are in place....To the guy going on about the PBS program used by the stews....Most dont like it/hate it...And their pairings are completely different and how they get paid is completely different.
02-22-2018, 09:10 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 101
I’m a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!
Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.
The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesn’t do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.
In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.
Here what we should be asking for at a minimum
-Pilot built pairings
-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged
-minimum reserve coverage
-a transparent Trip trading system that works
-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They can’t be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They don’t take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)
-limits on unstacking
-non optimizing
-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.
There are many more I’m missing but as I’m almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.
Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.
The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesn’t do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.
In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.
Here what we should be asking for at a minimum
-Pilot built pairings
-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged
-minimum reserve coverage
-a transparent Trip trading system that works
-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They can’t be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They don’t take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)
-limits on unstacking
-non optimizing
-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.
There are many more I’m missing but as I’m almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.
This is the most cogent and well expressed argument against carte blanche PBS implementation I have seen. Due to poor life decisions, I am dependent on PBS to put together my specific schedule. I am able to spend 23 nights at home per month (the other seven trying to stay awake in the Airbus cockpit). In light of your analysis, I can see that I will certainly lose my current set up no matter what. Hoping for PBS to return soon after being negotiated for with the aforementioned safeguards. Till then I’ll reluctantly suck it up. Thanks for presenting your case so well rather than with the condescending “You VX guys just have to take our word for things” mentality I see on this thread so often.
Last edited by VirginEskimo; 02-22-2018 at 09:23 AM.
02-22-2018, 09:47 AM
#108
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 57
02-22-2018, 10:04 AM
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lost in all of this debate is the fact that there already is PBS on Alaska property. The FAs use NAVTECH, and they seem to like it. I don’t hear them screaming about how Scheduling / management is using it to screw them at every turn. Why not? It’s the same people, the same trips, the same optimizer creating there pairings.
Look at it this way. If ASA pilot-staffing requirements go down by 10% by implementing PBS, they save a ton of money. I want most of that 10% windfall to go toward improving work rules, retaining vacation touching by awarding before vacation is considered. We can do that, we get more efficiency without cutting our legs off. We get more time with our families and they get PBS. It's ALL a negotiation. Admittedly, PBS will be a hard sell because I will be hyper-critical of the terms, or lack of terms, associated with it's implementation. We all should.
If you haven't read anything in this thread READ THIS:
Use facts to decide what you want and vote but please be informed. Let's all wait for details on what we're going to get for letting PBS on property. It's going to be a tall order for some pilots, and understandably so. It's our biggest bargaining chip at the moment, what's it worth? We decide.
02-22-2018, 10:19 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 240
They got PBS about 8 years ago. More than 1/2 the FA seniority list doesn't know any different. And the rest enjoy picking cherries on PBS - if they can figure out the software and rules that are constantly changing. I lived the FA PBS transition in my own house. It destroyed bidding power, took days off, and was ruthless when unstacking. It was horrible. That was all before they destroyed OT trading in the latest contract, and took away vacation and sick counting towards credit and vacation accrual. All for a small increase in pay. The FA's need to be careful about accepting terms on their TA's because it has always been a slow erosion of their work-rules; the latest TA being no exception. The pilots got it all taken in one big swoop (kasher) and the company still wants more.
Look at it this way. If ASA pilot-staffing requirements go down by 10% by implementing PBS, they save a ton of money. I want most of that 10% windfall to go toward improving work rules, retaining vacation touching by awarding before vacation is considered. We can do that, we get more efficiency without cutting our legs off. We get more time with our families and they get PBS. It's ALL a negotiation. Admittedly, PBS will be a hard sell because I will be hyper-critical of the terms, or lack of terms, associated with it's implementation. We all should.
If you haven't read anything in this thread READ THIS:
Use facts to decide what you want and vote but please be informed. Let's all wait for details on what we're going to get for letting PBS on property. It's going to be a tall order for some pilots, and understandably so. It's our biggest bargaining chip at the moment, what's it worth? We decide.
Look at it this way. If ASA pilot-staffing requirements go down by 10% by implementing PBS, they save a ton of money. I want most of that 10% windfall to go toward improving work rules, retaining vacation touching by awarding before vacation is considered. We can do that, we get more efficiency without cutting our legs off. We get more time with our families and they get PBS. It's ALL a negotiation. Admittedly, PBS will be a hard sell because I will be hyper-critical of the terms, or lack of terms, associated with it's implementation. We all should.
If you haven't read anything in this thread READ THIS:
Use facts to decide what you want and vote but please be informed. Let's all wait for details on what we're going to get for letting PBS on property. It's going to be a tall order for some pilots, and understandably so. It's our biggest bargaining chip at the moment, what's it worth? We decide.
Staffing won’t go down 10% !
It would if AS still had Trip drop by touching Vacation without having to pick up time to ‘complete’ their schedule, but they don’t.
The most Mgt. will see is 2-4%, if they think any different than they are clueless...
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